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 ARTISTEER + CCS

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Arthur Klisiewicz
Posted: 07/09/2009, 10:10 AM

Pleeeeease integrate Artisteer and CCS so we can all benefit !!!
I hope I'm not alone in this request...

Arthur KLisiewicz

ckroon

Posts: 869
Posted: 07/09/2009, 3:41 PM

Seconded!
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Arthur Klisiewicz
Posted: 07/10/2009, 7:50 AM

I just have asked a question Extensoft team who makes Artisteer. Here is an
answer quoted from the message.
====================================================================================


this sounds like talking to the wall !!! :-(
I'm totally disapointed, why you guys can't find a comon language and start
cooperating (?)
Arthur


----- Original Message -----
From: Artisteer Support
To: Arthur Klisiewicz
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 6:42 AM
Subject: Re: I really wish you will improve it


Arthur,

Here is the answer we obtain from Codecharge:
The guidelines are common knowledge, intuition and experience. That's
because Artisteer creates the same web designs as web designers create
manually. Many Codecharge users hire web designers and then copy their web
designs into Codecharge every day. Once you do this with web designs not
related to Artisteer then you can use the same approach for designs created
with Artisteer. You should work with Artisteer the same way as working with
any web designer.


Best Regards,

Paul Hudson
Extensoft, Inc. / Artisteer
Artisteer - The Automated Web Designer
http://www.artisteer.com
Twitter: http://twitter.com/ArtisteerTeam

----- Original Message -----
From: Arthur Klisiewicz
Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 1:59 PM
Subject: I really wish you will improve it


I'm having very hard time implementing Artisteer templates for CCS. The
HELP is almost useless. Where can I find some more guidelines how to
implement generated template into existing CCS Project ?

Arthur

Jan K. van Dalen
Posted: 07/18/2009, 2:25 PM

What an strange answer ...

I was hopeing for a .... "The next version you will be able to create a CCS
Style from Artisteer".

Unless CCS/Yes decides otherwise, it seems that we will not see integration
between these 2 products any time soon :(
peterr


Posts: 5971
Posted: 07/18/2009, 4:07 PM

Jan,

I provided that answer to Artisteer to be forwarded to the person asking how to currently use Artisteer with CCS. The above answer is the approach I used and our customers who use Artisteer also used.

This is not related to the next version or integrating Artisteer with CCS in the future.
I already wrote many times previously that we are working on integration with Artisteer. I wrote this on the forums, I wrote this as answers via support, we also told this to Arthur. So I'm only asking to do not change my answers and do not spread rumors that we are not planning to improve integration of CCS with Artisteer.
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robertmann

Posts: 109
Posted: 07/19/2009, 12:06 AM

Better integration will help professionals who want to create applications faster. I doubt it will help people who have no skills and cannot do this on their own and have not a clue about anything they are doing. They will continue posting dumb questions whether you do 10% of the work for them or 90%. They are just developer wannabes who don't have technical education and should never be in software development business. They see CCS doing so many things and imagine that it is marketed to dummies to make them developers. They don't realize that this is a professional product for professionals. Then they complain that they bought a product that is supposed to make them developers and it doesn't.
Why am I writing this here? Because I want to show Yes they are marketing CCS to wrong people. Where do you even find people who cannot copy and paste a bit of HTML into CCS or modify CCS projects that artsy creates? And I want to refer to this message later when Arthur Klisiewicz will ask more of his dumb questions after yes releases whatever improvements you are working on. Have you seen his other questions about Artisteer? He is not a developer and has no clue about coding or HTML and will always complain about being unable to do this or that. I don't understand why he is using CCS. Does he really think that help doc or integration will help him? We'll see.
My only wish for Yes is to put on their website ' CCS is a product for professionals who don't need it for anything other than R in RAD. Do no use it if you have no clue about database design, coding or HTML. '
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JimmyCrackedCorn

Posts: 583
Posted: 07/19/2009, 9:21 AM

@peter, can you share a roadmap for CCS and Artisteer integration? my impression so far has been that the two products are 1) not integrated well enough to offer me many tangible benefits and that 2) the website designs produced by Artisteer are fairly basic. I'm basing the first thought on comments I read here and at the Artisteer forums. the second is based on the limited samples provided on the Artisteer website. I would welcome a tool that makes it easier to create CCS design templates but so far I'm not convinced Artisteer is that tool and I have not bothered to give it much consideration. tell me why I'm wrong or how Artisteer will be integrated into CCS better in the future! :-)
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JimmyCrackedCorn

Posts: 583
Posted: 07/19/2009, 9:25 AM

@robertmann, c'mon man, drop the ladder and let the rest of us into the treehouse! :-D
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peterr


Posts: 5971
Posted: 07/19/2009, 3:31 PM

Hi Jimmy,

Thanks for the comments. I'd say that if you do not see value in Artisteer then indeed I'm not sure if the integration will be useful or important to you. And it is not my job to convince someone to use Artisteer or advertise its benefits. Integration between the two was simply a possibility that turned into a good interest from our customers - especially after trying to integrate the two manually (so this was good experience too). In my opinion Artisteer would serve mainly as an updated and more powerful replacement for the Style Builder in CCS. CCS creates basic administrative look, while Artisteer would allow CCS to create normal looking websites for public to see, not only for administrators.
And Artisteer covers more possibilities of form layouts (called blocks in Artisteer), thus mainly CCS forms would be updated to more modern look than our Style Builder currently creates.

As for technical aspect of the integration, it's actually not related so much to Artisteer but to not limiting CCS form styling to styles supported only by CCS Style Builder. We want any web designer to be able to redesign CCS forms and use own HTML and form structure (TABLE or DIV based), rather than having CCS always generate the current form's HTML. Using Artisteer would be one of possible techniques to create forms with custom HTML layout, while you will also be able to redesign form's HTML without Artisteer. So the "integration" means mainly opening CCS to using any custom HTML and styles with CCS forms. For example if someone will say "I want to use DIV, not tables in my record forms" then soon he or she should be able to do this without waiting for us to provide such feature.
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Jan K. van Dalen
Posted: 07/19/2009, 8:38 PM

Peter, I have nothing but respect for both you and Yes.

My message was in reference to the answer given by Artisteer. I'm glad
something will come in the future.

I know it is the policy of Yes not to disclose anything until Beta is
announced but ... giving the users a Roadmap from time to time could help
aliviate some of the miss-information that goes on here at times.
Jan K. van Dalen
Posted: 07/19/2009, 8:40 PM

Robert ... you are making alot of assumptions here.

I'm a serious developer ... at the same time I want more from Yes. Why?
.... Human nature and ... because as a "Serious Developer" and I want to use
tools that keep enhancing what I do.

Maybe you should go back to edlin :)
JimmyCrackedCorn

Posts: 583
Posted: 07/19/2009, 11:28 PM

Quote Jan K. van Dalen:
Maybe you should go back to edlin :)

now those were the days! I once had to write code in BASICA that would plot real-time data analysis on the screen and everything had to fit in 64K!!!! We did crazy stuff like single letter variable names and multiple statements on each line.
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JimmyCrackedCorn

Posts: 583
Posted: 07/19/2009, 11:29 PM

Quote peterr:
Hi Jimmy,

Thanks for the comments. I'd say that if you do not see value in Artisteer then indeed I'm not sure if the integration will be useful or important to you. And it is not my job to convince someone to use Artisteer or advertise its benefits. Integration between the two was simply a possibility that turned into a good interest from our customers - especially after trying to integrate the two manually (so this was good experience too). In my opinion Artisteer would serve mainly as an updated and more powerful replacement for the Style Builder in CCS. CCS creates basic administrative look, while Artisteer would allow CCS to create normal looking websites for public to see, not only for administrators.
And Artisteer covers more possibilities of form layouts (called blocks in Artisteer), thus mainly CCS forms would be updated to more modern look than our Style Builder currently creates.

As for technical aspect of the integration, it's actually not related so much to Artisteer but to not limiting CCS form styling to styles supported only by CCS Style Builder. We want any web designer to be able to redesign CCS forms and use own HTML and form structure (TABLE or DIV based), rather than having CCS always generate the current form's HTML. Using Artisteer would be one of possible techniques to create forms with custom HTML layout, while you will also be able to redesign form's HTML without Artisteer. So the "integration" means mainly opening CCS to using any custom HTML and styles with CCS forms. For example if someone will say "I want to use DIV, not tables in my record forms" then soon he or she should be able to do this without waiting for us to provide such feature.

thanks for the reply Peter! do you foresee a day when I could use Artisteer to create a new template that could then be used in a fully automated way in CCS (just like the existing templates)?
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Jan K. van Dalen
Posted: 07/20/2009, 5:47 AM

> For example if someone will say "I want to use DIV, not tables in my
> record forms"
> then soon he or she should be able to do this without waiting for us to
> provide
> such feature.

Cool !!!!

On one side I though you the goal was to create CCS Styles form Artisteer
but I see (I think) that you will be unshakeling CCS.

I'm curious if there will be a way to "convert" existing 4.x apps to go this
route or only new apps? (i.e. use DIV vs. Tables).
Jan K. van Dalen
Posted: 07/20/2009, 6:20 AM

LOL .... I'm afraid of admiting that my 1st computer was a sinclair :)
http://www.troubleshooters.com/lpm/200610/timex.jpg

and then I upgraded to a Trash80 Model III with 2 floppies:
http://www.miguanajuato.com/blog/files/2008/12/trs80-iii.jpg

Both I used versions of Basic :) with TRS-80 I used a db called Filepro
(still in business) which was pretty good.

Now we have CodeCharge ....

"JimmyCrackedCorn" <JimmyCrackedCorn@forum.codecharge> wrote in message
news:224a640e7c1cdf0@news.codecharge.com...
>
Quote Jan K. van Dalen:
> Maybe you should go back to edlin :)
>
>
> now those were the days! I once had to write code in BASICA that would
> plot
> real-time data analysis on the screen and everything had to fit in 64K!!!!
> We
> did crazy stuff like single letter variable names and multiple statements
> on
> each line.
> _________________
> Walter Kempees...you are dearly missed.
> ---------------------------------------
> Sent from YesSoftware forum
> http://forums.yessoftware.com/
>
robertmann

Posts: 109
Posted: 07/22/2009, 2:34 AM

I use CCS because its so useful and it ain't edlin, I love CCS, I want more, I complain about problems like everyone else, but I don't complain about own inabilities blaming someone else for them. As developers its our job to know our trade, figure things out and help our clients and employers. Most people can do this but there are 5 or so on the forums who spend their energy making CCS look like a program that magically should turn them into web developers, then blame CCS for not doing that. I don't think its Yes job to make CCs useful to everyone because no amount of functionality, help and tutorials is enough for those who need help at every step and ask million questions while yelling with an attitude ' Im totally disappointed '. It would be a mistake for Yes to spend their energy on trying to satisfy those 5 people who will always complain and demand more help. And looks like Yes knows what their main customers need, I like learning more about the new features.
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Robert
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peterr


Posts: 5971
Posted: 07/23/2009, 2:45 PM

Jan,

Quote :
I'm curious if there will be a way to "convert" existing 4.x apps to go this route or only new apps? (i.e. use DIV vs. Tables).

I don't have this information yet, but I'm assuming that logically such conversion may be impossible. I'd assume that this will work only with new applications.
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ckroon

Posts: 869
Posted: 07/26/2009, 9:27 AM

Hey Peterr..
how about throwing us a bone?
Any news on next update? features? Timeline?
Anything at all?
:-D
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Jan K. van Dalen
Posted: 07/27/2009, 3:51 PM

That was my guess .... But ... if the new functionality give us that freedom
.... the it will be worth rewriting some of the grids/forms.

Keep it up and keep us informed :)

"peterr" <peterr@forum.codecharge> wrote in message
news:224a68d9e0074de@news.codecharge.com...
> Jan,
>
>
Quote :
I'm curious if there will be a way to "convert" existing 4.x apps
> to go
> this route or only new apps? (i.e. use DIV vs. Tables).
>
> I don't have this information yet, but I'm assuming that logically such
> conversion may be impossible. I'd assume that this will work only with new
> applications.
> _________________
> Peter R.
> YesSoftware Forums Moderator
> For product support please visit http://support.yessoftware.com
> ---------------------------------------
> Sent from YesSoftware forum
> http://forums.yessoftware.com/
>
robertmann

Posts: 109
Posted: 07/28/2009, 1:53 AM

Pete.
Could you post any details or ETA?
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Robert
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peterr


Posts: 5971
Posted: 07/28/2009, 2:27 PM

Hi,

There are multiple reasons that we cannot disclose such information now.
Just one of reasons is that we're always making many changes and revising each solution many times, therefore something that we can see now may not be there later. And I also have not seen new features yet even though I know what's in the pipeline.
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