Tony M
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| Posted: 05/17/2002, 9:20 PM |
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Barry pointed out the Beta 4 release...install problem.
I was a bit surprised myself at the speed of the install…and I’m very angry because I wasted a lot of time trying to spot the differences etc.
I was convinced that Yes was right but as Barry pointed out someone in Yes was dumb and didn’t check the Beta 4 install out.
Come on Yes Software you are entering the "Big League" now.
Great Product...Fantastic Support
BUT your ADMINISTRATION CO-ORDINATION is terrible
You need real "Professional Administrators" to help support your staff and support us...Techies hate mundane stuff.
Despite constant messages both private on and the boards cries for more information are mainly ignored...We know you read all the messages… if you can't give an answer just say “you cannot give an answer…”
You have a knowledgeable and enthusiastic tech team and a growing bunch of users, many of whom share their knowledge and help the “not so fortunate” like myself.
A community spirit can die through lack of information and response.
It dampens interest, creates rumour, speculation and frustration.
BAD ADMINISTRATION also blunts sales...BIG SALES
So attention to small detail is essential…
1 – Yes leave too many questions unanswered.
1 – I personally didn’t receive an email notification of Studio or Beta 4.
2 - NO BETA CHANGES/UPDATE LIST
3 – Release of Beta 4 Documentation with Beta 3 Docs
4 - When is the Reference Manual Due
5 – So many, many points…
Please Yes Software…Read through all the messages again…there are too many duplicate/triplicate questions that have been left unanswered on both boards plus what you've received direct.
Have you looked at the Macromedia MX documentation and tutorials?
That’s the league you’re in and market you are selling to and servicing.
You created the animal, you’ve gotta keep it fed…otherwise in the end it will die or wander off.
In a competitive world, need comes before loyalty
Regards
Tony M
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Waspman
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| Posted: 05/18/2002, 1:28 AM |
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Well said that man!
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DaveRexel
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| Posted: 05/18/2002, 1:51 AM |
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The situation is worrying
- Documentation is at present limited and too basic.
- In the absence of even a simple read-me file most people have not understood how to install the latest beta. Surely the developers could have programmed the installer to do a Repair as Barry suggested.
- No mention of the main issues addressed in the latest beta, this is not standard practice for a test cycle.
- The help file is scanty to say the least.
Documentation problems are bound to create much frustration and user migration even if the software is brilliant
- The plugin architecture seems to be in place but is crippled by a lack of... Documentation.
On a more positive I have a couple of suggestions :
1- Develop the documentation online with the help of some of us users. ie put whats available into a web-app and assign a part of the development team exclusively to reporting to and from there. I'm sure many of us will be only too happy to lend a hand.
2- Make tools available for translation and plug-in development that protect the raw xml, exposing only the values that can be added or changed.
Congratulations on good software, however, organisation and growth are different beasts altogether.
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Jon Stanton
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| Posted: 05/18/2002, 3:59 AM |
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Didn't even know there was a beta 4 until scouring this forum. It would be good if all of us registered CC2 users received emails when a new beta is released. Particularly those of us who purchased the pro version giving the upgrade for free.
Also, can Yes Software give any indication as to a release date? All I can find is 'sometime in May' which means only 2 more weeks. Seems that a lot of work is needed by then???
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Tony M
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| Posted: 05/18/2002, 2:22 PM |
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Thanks Dave for your two excellent suggestions.
>>>
1- Develop the documentation online with the help of some of us users. ie put whats available into a web-app and assign a part of the development team exclusively to reporting to and from there. I'm sure many of us will be only too happy to lend a hand.
2- Make tools available for translation and plug-in development that protect the raw xml, exposing only the values that can be added or changed.
<<<
A reply here by Yes Software would encourage other suggestions and so on.
This in itself would encourage more to take part and help grow our community even stronger.
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DaveRexel
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| Posted: 05/18/2002, 4:01 PM |
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Thanks Tony
Online reference :
A possible model could be the immensely enjoyable www.php.net user commented reference and to a lesser degree(the manual has horrific navigation)www.mysql.com user annotated reference.
Both are online and instantly updateable by the developers with the added benefit of input(moderated) from well-informed users providing "HowTos", "Gotchas", "Doesn't do this...", "Whoohoo! never tried that angle before" with code syntax examples that work.
No work is done on either site in adopting user final-code examples into shorter more useful lead-ins so they are not truely representatives of useful reference web-apps.
Plugins :
- It was easy making a primitive GUI translation tool for the simple site language XML file.
If I could be sure that the contents of the English language site XML-file is
frozen by the developers I could go further than just experiments.
On the other hand, without any documentation whatsoever on plugin design from YesSoftware my brain is in meltdown state while I compare all the component XML files to find CCS keywords, recognisable code-patterns and possible plugin-writing hooks.
Well, its a good way to getting to know CCS but I am hopeful of YesSoftware getting its documentation together soon.
The beneficial effect of co-operative documentation of the more advanced features in CC, CCS can attract more developers at all levels. You are spot on when you compare the two companies strategies above.
On the other hand one would wish that YesSoftware would grow up, do justice to its customers and hire a high-class outfit to produce more professional documentation and examples that really show the quality of the software.
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CodeCharge
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| Posted: 05/19/2002, 11:15 AM |
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Hi Everyone,
Installation:
Our installation program is a standard installation program created with a popular tool InstallShield. Unfortunately this may not create the most clear upgrade installations and we should've recommend to everyone to remove Beta3 before installing Beta4.
Community:
Regarding messages on boards, we treat online community as a community for users, not for technical support. However, we try to answer many of the questions here. But please do not assume that if you need urgent technical help, you will find it here. We have a support system for tracking the status of each issue, so that we can respond quicker.
Also, many messages on this board are duplicated, even if they were discussed several times in the past. We also cannot support Beta product, but we’re doing what we can.
Documentation:
Have you seen our Tutorials and Documentation? If not, please download them here:
CodeCharge Studio User Manual (4.5MB PDF) -
http://www.codecharge.com/download/files/pdf/CodeChargeStudioManualB4.zip
CodeCharge Studio Introductory Tutorial (2.8MB PDF) -
http://www.codecharge.com/download/files/pdf/CCSTutorial_Beta.pdf
This information was posted together with the Beta4 information.
Generally, the above documentation is fairly large and we have reservations about including it with the program because many international users complain that our download file is already too large.
Additional documentation is also being created.
Plug-in architecture:
We will develop tools and create documentation at a later time. Our main focus is to deliver working product, then later create an SDK.
Beta4 Update List:
Agree that this is a valid issue, however, there are over a hundred fixes and changes made since Beta3 and it is not easy to describe them without confusing users. Instead, let me describe on what's remaining for the release:
- Code generation templates are generally completed and in the process of additional testing and debugging. Please let us know via the support if you find that something doesn't work. (it can be discussed here separately, but our support system lets us track the status of issues)
- Remote Publishing / FTP functionality
- Global Themes, with ability to change Theme on all pages
- Ability to rename a page and all references to it
- Cosmetic changes. We may rename "Wizards" to "Builders"
- Additional documentation, including programming reference for ASP and PHP (other technologies later)
The official release is scheduled for May 28th.
Obviously the product could still use a lot of improvements and we have ideas for another year of work, but we're sure you don't want to wait that long 
Additional updates will be released on ongoing basis, for example Tree and Upload components, additional Wizards, etc., will come within 2 months.
Thank you for your comments and regards,
CodeCharge Team
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Tony M
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| Posted: 05/19/2002, 3:20 PM |
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Thanks CodeCharge Team...
...for the quick response and on a Sunday as well<bg>
I will now expand this thread for easier reference and follow-up replies.
Regards
Tony M
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Raxip
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| Posted: 05/19/2002, 7:46 PM |
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I say give these guys a break, It's a bloody beta, if you can't figure out whats going on then you should be waiting for the final release. REMEMBER THE KEY WORD ... BETA ... and give the guys a chance..... i think they are doing fine and the documenation, although needs some work, is not bad.
You people, what the hell do you want ..... I give them an A for effort and have not seen anyone else on the market coming even close to what these guys are attempting. What is big league anyways?
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DaveRexel
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| Posted: 05/20/2002, 7:53 AM |
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First off I would like to agree with raxips post (yes master, v r lamrs...)
Thank you YesSoftware for a very informative post.
I would as always, first like to express my admiration for this brilliant product.
Beta Test :
- I have published examples of the CCS portals etc in PHP to different remote servers with micro changes to the common files only. (this to test CCS b4 prior to YS fixing FTP):
- the forum code contains an bug that easy to fix, worked flawlessly after that even if the example produced is murderously comical(I fell off the chair laughing at the poor graphics and the primitive forum concept - reheated old CC leftover).
All this out of the box certainly gives me great confidence in the overall project.
Documentation:
I have downloaded, read and re-read ALL the docuemtation and browsed most of the posts on the NGs and here.
I now realise that the YS development team might not have enough people on hand to simultaneously develop and document the project. This being commercial software and not open source code does make me slightly nervous, I depend on my software to assist me in developing my clients desired content. If I have to wonder about the inner workings of something then it gets left on the shelf: even an inferior product can get my deadline met if I can get deep enough into it to be able to realise the clients design, and for him to pay me.
This why why we have to hang onto UD(well-documented) and why no YS product has yet been used by our teams on any client projects, its been easier to hand-code and upkeep that code in UD. (no UD server behaviours etc yech!). Looking at CCS code I have begun to believe that we can change our main tool but YS focus seems to be the novice user as far as documentation goes.
As a serious professional developer I expect the CCS release version to have detailed documentation and examples directed to the advanced user as well.
Without an SDK it will be hard for YS to gain the loyalty of advanced users.
Beta 4:
When the betas so good it seems churlish to return to my misgivings:
I take issue here with the programs paradigm
As with the original CC, CCS presents you with a brick wall after you have laid out your forms and built your basic infrastructure.
To illustrate my point just take any of the more complicated YS provided examples out of the box (gotocode, portal, bookstore, forum) and try to develop them further using your own logic modules... bang!!! your foreheads bloody.
Now you have to insert code in every page or worse every form to bring in your own functions by hand instead of being able to produce your own little IDE dialog boxes. The availablity of workarounds and sample code does not diminish the immense work involved adding your required functionality into the basic structure already produced by lets say a wizard. No professional outfit should have the time to fiddle about like that, its wasted money!
CCS plugin structure has the hidden power to avoid such a coding nightmare.
As stated the plug-in developer can produce add-in components thus empowering the program users with the logic demanded by the assignment through wizards/widgets without addition load on YS developers who can then get on with enhancing and fine-tuning our favourite program. So go on, YesSoftware, give us a single simple example... please.
I would like to repeat my offer on helping out with an online advanced reference if anyones interested.
Greetings
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robert
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| Posted: 05/20/2002, 10:22 AM |
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I can agree a lot with Tony. relatively new to this, but with a 20+ year in programming. Also stumbled into the beta upgrade trap. And looking to the same errors. Now with beta4 correct installed still experiencing problems when trying to add images (duplicating part of the other code ??) or loosing a part of a page when i externally edit with dreamweaver.
And with the lack of docs (YES i did read all the pdf's) i get worried when i read a deadline for the 28th for final, it looks like YEs wants to push out final, even if in opinion of beta-users its not ready.
It all gives an inconsistent almost amateur view, with several ways of response here,newsgroups etc... . There own website which should give a better feel of all the possibilities with ccs.
I still believe it is a very good product, but will the looks also grab attentions at the bigger companies, so that when i search at jobsites the knowledge of codecharge will be searched for. Or does it end in competition taken over the ideas and improve on it, or with the fp-addin taken over by ms.
I read the forums, the newsgroups and see between the lines that many would-be users have problems starting. and stating don't know if it works with coldfusion MX it's not yet released. Well macromedia has all kind of trials (cq beta's) and they surely looks better then the ccs beta's .
SO improve an already good product!, in a way to make me confident to recommend it to my clients or be taken over by competition.
regards,
Bob R
Amsterdam/Brussel
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lirving@coffs.com.au
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| Posted: 05/27/2002, 1:37 AM |
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Yes but where are the variables
ie used to be a before show variable consistinf of fld and the variable name ie. fldmyfieldname, what is it now ?
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