optron
Posts: 114
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| Posted: 09/11/2009, 4:31 PM |
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Since there is very little learning resources available, perhaps good way of learning would be by studying examples. I believe - every one who works with CCS for more than a year have something to present. Perhaps all you need to do is to extract some stuff from your existing project and contribute. I would like to setup a site which would collect users examples. This would be something similar to YesSoftware ExamplePack which is available for download. If I have enough examples I would create project database which would be available for download (at no charge) to all CCS users. I will neither pay for any submissions or ask for money. All would be free.
sending a project you must include the table structures, which allow creating appropriate databases, or include proper connection strings to connect to existing databases. I can provide access to several back-ends as: Access, MySQL, MS-SQL, Progress, FoxPro, TPS, CSV
Here is some suggestions for (WORKING) examples:
- saving / reading images into BLOB record
- consolidating CCS application with CMS systems (Joomla,Drupal,WordPress)
- processing PayPal transactions
- use of multiple database connections (within one project - i.e. copying selected data from one database to another)
- tagging records (for further manipulation)
- extracting and exporting data from web app into Excel, PDF, CSV
- using and manipulating Emails
- hiding / unhiding parts of page (or certain objects based on criteria)
- using configuration records
- drawing images based on user data
I could extend this list probably to more than 100 items,... so I hope you got the picture.
This is an initiative and it will not be implemented unless I collect a minimal amount of examples to start. Hosting will be based on IIS and Apache. If you have any questions please feel free to send me private mail.
Arthur
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damian
Posts: 838
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| Posted: 09/12/2009, 12:44 AM |
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i would both find this useful and would contribute (simple stuff!)
the best way to keep ccs fresh and growing is to have more users of ccs (hence more revenue for yes)
making good, *documented* examples would certainly help...
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ckroon
Posts: 869
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| Posted: 09/12/2009, 9:16 AM |
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This is a good idea.
I think it would help to have as many examples as possible be based off of the same database tables.
For instance.. have a few tables like: Albums, Artists, Songs.
Then, when someone makes an example page, they use these tables to base it off.
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JimmyCrackedCorn
Posts: 583
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| Posted: 09/12/2009, 12:56 PM |
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Quote ckroon:
I think it would help to have as many examples as possible be based off of the same database tables.
For instance.. have a few tables like: Albums, Artists, Songs.
Then, when someone makes an example page, they use these tables to base it off.
I strongly recommend using the exact same database tables that are already included in CCS. Less work to implement and everyone already has those. and they are pretty complete.
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JimmyCrackedCorn
Posts: 583
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| Posted: 09/12/2009, 1:02 PM |
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Quote optron:
Since there is very little learning resources available, perhaps good way of learning would be by studying examples. I believe - every one who works with CCS for more than a year have something to present. Perhaps all you need to do is to extract some stuff from your existing project and contribute. I would like to setup a site which would collect users examples. This would be something similar to YesSoftware ExamplePack which is available for download. If I have enough examples I would create project database which would be available for download (at no charge) to all CCS users. I will neither pay for any submissions or ask for money. All would be free.
this ia a good idea. the only issue I see is different languages. because I use ASP I would have zero interest in the Java, ASP.Net, PHP, etc. examples. maybe,
1) keep examples simple, illustrating a single concept where possible
2) have enough people involved so someone would be available/willing to convert each example to the other languages
3) use the existing CCS examples as a basic guide to structuring these (but hopefully with more detailed explanations!)
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optron
Posts: 114
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| Posted: 09/14/2009, 1:23 PM |
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I could create sections for each language/technology (pretty much like it is made on this forum).
As far as dB It will not be possible to keep same dB for all examples simply because some code must be handled different way on different types of databases. I would probably concentrate on Access/MSSQL/MySQL.
If any of you has anything to offer, please just PM me with how many and what kind of example you may submit (so we can see if there is enough to start).
Here are some options to vote:
1. All projects are ZIPed and user must download it, setup dB and configure connection in order to use it (this is the easiest for me)
2. Every example is tested and installed on my server (including dB connection), then every application can be accesses from internet remotely. ZIPed file could be downloaded for reviewing.
3. There is only one single project with one (ie. CCS demo database - Access) which will grow while new example procedures will be added. This might be ali tlle hard to maintain (as far as dB structure changes), but it is possible.
4. I would limit a demo to one only language fro live application and make a room to put ZIPed files for other technologies (available for download). Of course this will require people to convert projects (which is rather unlikely).
5. Use existing CCS SamplePack and simply add to it, then redistribute.
there is probably more options,... so go ahead if you like.
Regards - Arthur
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paulmason411
Posts: 127
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| Posted: 09/15/2009, 7:47 AM |
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Hey Arthur,
I like your idea and think it would be really helpful. I have two idea's to add to it that I think will really get it going.
1) You could write up all the possible examples you think of in a big list & let users upload for those specific examples. E.g.
- Emails
- Sending an Email (1)
- Sending an Email to multiple recipients (0)
- Converting a page to PDF and emailing as an attachment (2)
- Scheduling Emails to trigger on certain dates (3)
Images
- Uploading an Image (0)
- Uploading images to a dynamic folder (4)
- Resizing Images and creating thumbnails (1)
Etc.
Note the number in the brackets is how many examples have been uploaded for each item. Then when you click on an item it will go to the list of examples and have user ratings and comments next to each. Some people are bound to upload code of low quality and therefore people browsing the site need some quick way to detect this, and vice-versa for high quality code. If there isn't a topic for someone's example they can create it and an admin can moderate it to keep the category structure nice and organized.
2) I think it's nice that you're not charging for examples as I'm all for opensource, however I think in every community people need some sort of encouragement. So I think it would be a good idea to give each user a profile that gives them a way of publicizing there skills. So on each users profile page they would have:
-Name
-Contact/PM ability
- Business Name
- Website
- Amount of Tutorials/Examples
- Average Rating of Tutorials/Examples
- Total Downloads
- Links to a list of all Tutorials/Examples with user ratings
This would serve as codecharge portfolio and allow users to generate work externally.
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optron
Posts: 114
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| Posted: 09/15/2009, 12:32 PM |
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I agree with most of what you have said. This would require some more time to spent to prepare sort of web app, and I'm not sure if I can have enough time to do that (unless I start charge a little fee for subscription). I need to think about it, but thank you and others for suggestions....
Another easy way of doing this is just simply providing a table with the linkis for downloads (and everybody will be responsible for his samples), but this might cause some inconsistency and probably broken links after some time.
I will probably make some decissions in 2-3 weeks and start working on it.
Arthur
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jjrjr1
Posts: 942
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| Posted: 09/15/2009, 4:53 PM |
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Hi This is another great idea.
It certainly will compliemt this site and CCSElite. The more the merrier.
I certainly hope you do not get the same sort of angry reception Rick and I got for doing something similar over 1 year ago.
Good luck Arthur.
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jjrjr1
Posts: 942
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| Posted: 09/15/2009, 5:35 PM |
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BTW Arthur.
CCSElite has been up for over a year and not very many people have uploaded any examples. You might need to consider that before you go to the trouble of building a site to take uploads.
In fact people could, If they want, can upload expamples for a price and it seems there still are few who want to upload stuff.
Anyway. Hope it works out for the community.
John
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paulmason411
Posts: 127
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| Posted: 09/15/2009, 7:09 PM |
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I think from what John has said, you will need to go all out and create something quite extensive with some of the suggestions I made above otherwise IMO I don't think you will get it off the ground.
To elaborate on my 2nd point in my above post, have a look at this community:
http://www.actionscript.org/
and this is an example of a user profile:
http://www.actionscript.org/resources/authors/515/Jean-Andr%E9-Mas
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jjrjr1
Posts: 942
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| Posted: 09/15/2009, 7:34 PM |
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Exactly, CCSElite has nearly every feature you have mentioned but still have a limited number of contributors.
It just seems most folks do not take the time to add examples or stuff even if they might get paid for it. (since CCSElite does allow members to make stuff available for a price if they so choose.)
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optron
Posts: 114
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| Posted: 09/15/2009, 10:55 PM |
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I don't know, perhaps there is something missing, or or no interest....
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jjrjr1
Posts: 942
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| Posted: 09/15/2009, 11:37 PM |
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Yeah. Just thought I would mention it so you will have all the info you need to make the decision before you do all that work.
Don't get me wrong, I think the more resources for CCS info the better and the more viable CCS will be. So I hope you are not discouraged.
I am guessing most of the traffic we see at CCSElite does not come from this forum. I only assume that since I have been told many times by members of this forum that only one site for CCS is necessary, having others dilutes this community.
Go figure.
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JimmyCrackedCorn
Posts: 583
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| Posted: 09/16/2009, 5:03 AM |
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Arthur,
I'd recommend you start this as a community-supported service and not even kid yourself that it will generate $ for you any time soon. even sites like Google and Youtube went years without making any money!
and don't simply make your site an 85% duplicate of what we already have here! it must be very original, useful and compelling to get anyone to visit. and make sure it compliments rather than detracts from this community; most of us are satisfied with this community and do not wish to see it impacted negatively. we already have a forum so I cannot see any reason to create another for such a small community. I don't want to have to check both places!
and focus on quality and professionalism. your site doesn't have to be the best around but it cannot look amateur. whether this should matter or not, it does matter to most of us.
and finally, as difficult as it may be, try to be professional and not take comments personally. undoubtedly you will get comments if you get this off the ground. some will be helpful and others may not be.
and one last word. unless you consider this a labor of love or for some reason you just want to create/manage/grow something for the community, think long and hard about whether this is worth your time and expense. I suspect the CCS community is not that large to begin with and you need to understand that you'll only attract some small percentage of that community no matter how good your new site is. I see great ideas like CodeChargeTools come online and then wither away and I suspect it is simply because the market is just not large enough to support someone doing that profitably.
just my thoughts and worth only what you paid for them! :) good luck and I'm interested to see where you go with this.
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Rick
Posts: 52
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| Posted: 09/16/2009, 5:38 AM |
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I have recently purchased the full set of CodeChargeTools and my experience seems to differ in a favorable way. I have used a couple of the tools so far and they have worked flawlessly. I have also received very helpful responses to my inquires when I was stuck a couple of times. Both times it were simple understanding/training issues, not tool problems.
Their site also shows a number of updates to their products in 2009, including as recently as July.
I certainly hope they continue to create new tools and support those they have already created because they appear to be excellent first rate tools.
I wish only that there were more first rate quality tools out there for CCS.
Perhaps YesSoftware should put more attention into supporting and promoting efforts like CodeChargeTools.
As far as support sites I agree that the more the better if they offer unique content. Though I have not signed up to this point at CCSElite I have found some excellent info there and in the postings here from the founders of that site.
Rick
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datadoit
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| Posted: 09/16/2009, 6:59 AM |
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As JCC stated, the CCS user base is extremely small. Of that extremely
small user base, you'll only attract a small percentage of that. You're
down to literally only a hand-full of potential contributors.
I sent a book proposal to O'Reilly, and their research had the same
result - not enough user base to make money with. [May still do a book
anyways with another or self-publishing.]
I've begged on several occasions now to have a developer's conference,
which hit brick walls. I can't find anywhere YS presenting or
exhibiting at any other conferences. There simply appears to not exist
any sort of marketing group or person at YS at all! Their own website
hasn't been 'reworked' in years. This tells me they're surviving on
licensing and the too-small support fee. There's no "growth model" in
their business plan, me thinks. Just a tiny, globally disbursed group
of brilliant, brilliant, BRILLIANT geeks and developers, with no real
guidance from a seasoned leader.
There's no Microsoft without Ballmer. There's no Apple without Jobs.
At this point in the game, I think your best bet is to maybe make a few
dollars on reselling licenses from the website that may or may not cover
your hosting fees.
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Saud
Posts: 15
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| Posted: 09/16/2009, 3:38 PM |
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good idea.
One of the main things that is stopping the widespread of CCS is the lack of community support.
Just imagine if there is a database of addons and examples that a user can jumpstart his project with, how that could affect the popularity of this products.
An example of how to work on a project that includes the usage of an existing database (such a Community Forum) would be very beneficial.
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AFoster
Posts: 6
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| Posted: 09/16/2009, 8:01 PM |
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Just switched over to Codechare from Ironspeed based on friend's recommendation and happy so far. Ironspeed seemed to have pretty good leadership and some investor involvement but this doesn't help when the market is so tiny and only getting smaller. IronSpeed team became smaller, support poorer, and the product more expensive, trying to cover their 'leadership' costs.
So don't kid yourself that investing into tools will take anyone anywhere. Borland failed, QT and many others went open source, CodeSmith never grew, Oracle and IBM offer tools for free with their portals, not much has happened with Microsoft's own Access either. This has never worked for anyone and investors cringe when someone mentions software development tools, just ask them. I'm rather attracted to smaller tool companies if they are able to preserve their cash and not try to foolishly spend it on exhibits, sales people and executives who imagine growth.
However, the last point made by Saud is absolutely excellent!
Can a cash producing machine like Codecharge be sold successfully when the company has to spend millions convincing every new potential customer that it works because seemingly no one creates anything with it? Any tools that still survive or grow can do so only because of people seeing and using applications made with those tools.
Therefore my question is why I cannot find hundreds of Codecharge made applications everywhere on the internet, used and known by everyone; for website management, blogs, CRM, ecommerce, etc. etc.?
If Codecharge as a company could do all this by themselves then they wouldn't offer the tool, therefore I'm assuming they sell it for others to create all those applications. So what have you all guys been doing all those years and why isn't the word Codecharge written all over the internet?  Shouldn't everyone in every country already know, use and support Codecharge thanks to its user community?
That's where I see benefits of an effort like the one proposed by Arthur, although it is not what could help me or Codecharge at this point. I'd rather be interested in helping improve web applications that should already be here, actively maintained by the community and, more importantly, hundreds other communities that use those applications. Or I could get involved with any company that flooded the market with commercial applications made with Codecharge.
Where are those community websites or companies? Have I missed them? Or has everyone missed the train by not taking advantage of the awesome opportunity provided by Codecharge?
Thanks,
Al
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JimmyCrackedCorn
Posts: 583
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| Posted: 09/17/2009, 12:14 AM |
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Quote Rick:
I have recently purchased the full set of CodeChargeTools and my experience seems to differ in a favorable way. I have used a couple of the tools so far and they have worked flawlessly. I have also received very helpful responses to my inquires when I was stuck a couple of times. Both times it were simple understanding/training issues, not tool problems.
Their site also shows a number of updates to their products in 2009, including as recently as July.
I certainly hope they continue to create new tools and support those they have already created because they appear to be excellent first rate tools.
I wish only that there were more first rate quality tools out there for CCS.
Perhaps YesSoftware should put more attention into supporting and promoting efforts like CodeChargeTools.
As far as support sites I agree that the more the better if they offer unique content. Though I have not signed up to this point at CCSElite I have found some excellent info there and in the postings here from the founders of that site.
Rick
well, let me just clarify that I was in no way disrespecting CodeChargeTools! I purchased their complete set 2 years ago and they are very well done. plus, every time I have had a problem Frank has been there to help me.
so what is the reason CodeChargeTools is essentially the only example of a 3rd-party creating CCS add-ons? I suspect it is as we have discussed; the market is just too small.
I agree with you 100% about "unique content". we could use a lot more of this. one of the main problems I see is that it is uncommon for a developer to be able to support all of the technologies CCS supports. if you happen to create your cool new add-on in PHP and I use JAVA I will not be a customer. so that small subset of the CCS market just got even smaller.
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JimmyCrackedCorn
Posts: 583
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| Posted: 09/17/2009, 12:25 AM |
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Quote AFoster:
Just switched over to Codechare from Ironspeed based on friend's recommendation and happy so far. Ironspeed seemed to have pretty good leadership and some investor involvement but this doesn't help when the market is so tiny and only getting smaller. IronSpeed team became smaller, support poorer, and the product more expensive, trying to cover their 'leadership' costs.
So don't kid yourself that investing into tools will take anyone anywhere. Borland failed, QT and many others went open source, CodeSmith never grew, Oracle and IBM offer tools for free with their portals, not much has happened with Microsoft's own Access either. This has never worked for anyone and investors cringe when someone mentions software development tools, just ask them. I'm rather attracted to smaller tool companies if they are able to preserve their cash and not try to foolishly spend it on exhibits, sales people and executives who imagine growth.
interesting comments about Ironspeed. we evaluated them before deciding on CCS. I did not like their extremely high price and the fact that they are limited to ASP.NET.
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Saud
Posts: 15
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| Posted: 09/17/2009, 4:04 PM |
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One of the ideas that might expand the CCS community and eventually contribute more to the code dbase and examples is if Yessoftware offered a free downgraded version of CCS that does the basic things.
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optron
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| Posted: 09/18/2009, 7:09 PM |
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optron
Posts: 114
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| Posted: 09/18/2009, 7:12 PM |
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well, there is a downgraded CCS which is limited to only one technology. I think the problem lies in the market size and YesSoft. support for building extensions. If the building extensions is easy and well documented, and there is enough resources there will be more extensions and more ucstomers and the market will grow. I spoke recently with several programmers and none of the even herd of CCS. CCS (in my opinion) supports a little to may platforms which makes development much harder. I would probably exclude Perl and Colffusion. The most widely used are PHP/ASP.ASP.NET JSP, but this is their decission.
I use another 4GL tool for about 15 years and is isn't well known as well but the community is much more supportive and there are hundreds of plug'ins and extensions. This tool though has another separate language to build them and is well supported by the company. At the moment of this writing they also switch to .NET olny simply because it would cost to much to support other platforms.
Iron Speed sucks in their licensing and price and the idea of their software was stollen from YesSoft.
Altough I think their support is much better and their plugins/extensions grow much faster (perhaps thanks to the higher pricing). I can definitely say they have much, much more educational resources and that attracts people to use the tool.
If CCS integrates 100% with Arrtisteer it would be a killer product, but it will only succed if there will be enough 3rd part add-ons. So far after several years there is almost nothing and that's sad.
CCS community isn't also so great simply because it is so divided on different technologies and it isn't easy for someone who knows ASP very well to support people who develop in PHP or Perl.
Building estension has to take this also into consideratino which makes things much more difficult.
The only solution to this is:
- Yes Soft. must support building extensions on a much larger scale
- YeS Soft. must provide more examples and resources to help building extensions
- Usrs have to unite and submit more examples so novie will not get discouraged
I have seen some user on this forum very arogant to new comers simply because they know more... whic hreally sucks, because :if you don;t have enough patience to others and you don't want to help them (even if they ask stupid repetitive questions) you destroy your own CCS environment. It is like peeing in your own bathtop....
I haven't got discouraged yet, but I would like to figure out how many people are willing to participate in subbmitions. I will only start this project is I have enough contributors.
Arthur
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jjrjr1
Posts: 942
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| Posted: 09/19/2009, 7:50 AM |
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I totally agree with you Arthur.
I just wanted to share with you some real world experience.
Rick and I started CCSElite over a year ago. We did exactly that.. created a site where community members could upload examples, code, site showcase, tips, etc. Even tutorials. We even created chat rooms where topical meetings could be had and scheduled for folks to get together to discuss one topic real time.
We actually took it a step further to stimulate uploads like this and the creation of CCS tools and even allow uploading members to charge a fee for this if they wanted to.
WIll all that potential incentive, there is hardly any uploads of examplels, utilities, ... etc from this forum. This has implied to me that members of the Yes forums have nothing to contribute or are just not interested in really offering contributions.
At CCSEite we already have several CCS tools, code dropins, and templates. Without more contributors, the number of CCS tools will remain limited. http://ccselite.com/online_store.com
I am just sharing real world experience in this area regardless of what is said by few members here.
I do believe the growth of CCS hinges in part on support sites. Just look at how many support sites exist for other development environments..
Hope that helps and if yu need any help you can count me in.
John
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optron
Posts: 114
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| Posted: 09/22/2009, 8:02 AM |
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I agree with you and you made a good start. I don't know what to say about the reason CCS being not so popular as it is really great tool. I think part of it is YesSoftware, which is not giving enough support in developing 3rd party components, and not enough documentation for CCS itself. Their attitude towards users is also somewhat questionable (and because it is sort of personal I do not want to brake their reputation, so I will not shgare it on this forum).
They do the best they can, but sometimes there is more required, and perhaps changing attitude will make more wonderful things to happen. It is not always about money, time and skills,....
It is about what is the level of consciousness and what people have in the heart.
For the developer to succed the most important part is to listen what the user wants, and then evaluate the needs to make priorities. It doesn''t seem like YesSoft. listen to that. They probably also do not realize of importance of 3rd party developers, and I do not know how can I encourage them to go more towards that alley.
Arthur
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damian
Posts: 838
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| Posted: 09/22/2009, 3:14 PM |
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i think the idea has merit - it will take a lot of work and may or may not ever take off
due to the small size of the community i think you would be best served by not duplicating features which already exist here or at ccselite
a wiki to help build doco has been proposed elsewhere and your suggestion of small, working, documented examples working on the supplied db's is also good
forums are already catered for as is the shop where you can buy/sell add-ons, generators, apps over at ccselite
just my 2c worth....
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JimmyCrackedCorn
Posts: 583
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| Posted: 09/22/2009, 6:56 PM |
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I agree with damian. build only what is missing from Yes site first so you add value rather than duplicate what we already have. and for buying/selling add-ons, projects, etc. there is already that feature here,
http://www.yessoftware.com/marketplace/
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