George L.
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| Posted: 06/06/2002, 9:53 AM |
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Dear Code Charge Team,
I am a die-hard Code Charge fan. I have been using your product over a year, so please take all of this as constructive criticism. I want to see you guys succeed. I think you released this product a little too early for General Availability. Maybe a couple more betas would have been wiser.
Let me state a couple of things right off the bat first:
1. I am aware of the fact that this is a virgin release of a "brand new product".
2. I am aware that you are working as hard as you can to fix any and all reported bugs reported by your devoted existing customer base and new customers.
This is coming from someone who has worked in a software company for over 5 years. I understand the nature and intricacies of rolling out a product to the public. Sometimes you just have feel comfortable with what you have and go with it.
Unfortunately though, the fact that I cannot complete my existing development goals using the CCS 1.0 product is causing me undue frustration. I make’s me wonder just a bit what the justification was for the June 4th rollout date. Maybe its just user headspace and timing causing all of the issues. Maybe not. All I know is that the learning curve for this is massive and there are numerous bugs that prevent me from moving forward. Don't get me wrong. I have invested too much of my time with this to just throw my hands up in frustration and give up. I will wait patiently for the e-fixes and patches.
Here is what I would suggest in the meantime:
Post a list of known or reported bugs in your Bulletins section like you used to.
What is everyone else’s initial impression so far?
Thanks again Code Charge Team.
g.
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Del Hundley
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| Posted: 06/06/2002, 11:55 AM |
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Hi George, I have exactly the opposite problem I am enjoying it so much that it has turned a stressful project I have worked on for 5 months into an enjoyable development. I now after only two days have made the asp pages that I have been hand jamming for months in record time and tested them and customer is testing and happy. You didn't list the problems you are having so Im not sure where your troubles are but the IDE seems to be easy to me I had only a single evening difficulty then the next day I was able to just for some strange reason do everything I needed with the new 1.0 version. Hope they can help you.
V/R
Del
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George L.
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| Posted: 06/06/2002, 1:22 PM |
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Hi.
Yes I did not list the problems I have been having. Here is a minor list as of now.
My env:
PHP 4.2.0
Apache 1.3.23
Solaris 8
Code PHP + Templates
1. Return page in Data Properties are not reflected properly when code is generated and published.
2. Relative paths are not correct when publishing to an Apache/UNIX environment.
3. I am creating pages with all lower-case letters, but they are generated with first letter of page name capitalized.
4. Some of the pre-packaged code actions such as "Send Email" are not working properly or not explained in the correct context as to how to use.
5. Sort Columns lose their functionality in Design Mode if try to rename them with spaces. Such as USER_NAME to USER NAME.
Overall. I'm really having the most problem with the code-generation part. I can get around most other things. But there are many problems in the translation from Windows code to Unix code. It's a show-stopper though. I would presume that maybe they are stronger in ASP rather than PHP, and their just needs to be some more unit testing on their XML/XLS templates. Maybe that's why I'm having more problems using PHP.
FYI: I was able to run through a couple of their sample projects using ASP, so maybe my theory is close regarding ASP vs. PHP.
Anyhow. As I sais before. I'm still a die-hard supporter of CodeCharge. I think they have a long way to go to smooth out the bumps, but overall, it's still a great product/company.
Thks
g.
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DaveRexel
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| Posted: 06/06/2002, 3:05 PM |
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Hello George L,
I do not feel that CCS was released too early.
I did a quick test to reproduce some of your issues
---ISSUE-----
3. I am creating pages with all lower-case letters, but they are generated with first letter of page name capitalized.
---------
Using a fresh Forum solution
renamed Default to default
answered yes at the prompt
it renamed the page
and showed it OK
------ISSUE---------
5. Sort Columns lose their functionality in Design Mode if try to rename them with spaces. Such as USER_NAME to USER NAME.
---------------
If you choose all the text in the Sort Columns Captions
or the start or end it often bugs out as you said. This is tiresome so I now type my Caption text in the middle of the original link and carefully take away the rest.
***************
Initial impression so far
the switch to OOP is steep:
better CCS oriented-explanations, examples and intermediate tutorials on using these improvements would certainly be welcome.
Its become easier for many tasks, but getting under the generated code will still slow down many projects needing more functionality.
I still advocate a user-commented CCS Programmers Reference, online, moderated by YS who will refine/publish the acceptable user examples for each CCS function/method etc. Surely this is easier than answering the same questions repeatedly.
This should be easy enough for the brilliant folks at YS to setup.
Online Annotated CCS Programmers Reference could help everyone using the product to find tips sorted on named functions/methods etc, thus helping all of us to overcome the biggest obstacle to using this brilliant product productively : the new syntax and object-models.
Greetings,
Dave
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RAXIP
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| Posted: 06/06/2002, 10:16 PM |
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Dave
Wow you put alot of thought into your responses.
I go with what he said, show more docs for the samples :)
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Parsam
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| Posted: 06/07/2002, 5:37 AM |
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I am also a die-hard fan of CodeCharge. CC interface was much simple and easy than CCS. Spending time to search where to do what. It badly needs a comparison tutorial for CC users on HOW TO IN CCS
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Rick Clow
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| Posted: 06/07/2002, 8:51 AM |
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While I have not been able to "play" with CCS enough to either agree or disagree with George's assertions that CCS was released too early I do need to agree with the other respondants that there needs to be more tutorials. As a CodeCharge user since the early versions I try and make weekly trips to the support pages to check on updated, or new, tutorials and have always been disappointed that the same 'dated' tutorials are the only ones present. Maybe it's our fault as a community for not developing and posting more tutorials ourselves but since this isn't an open source project and since most of us do this for a living I, for one, look to Yes to help us out here with fresh and updated tutorials.
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George L.
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| Posted: 06/07/2002, 11:18 AM |
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Del.
Well. I have been able to find workarounds for some of the issues that I reported as well as reporting them to CodeCharge Support. I would be irresponsible of me to point out the difficiencies without at least addressing them to Yes Software first.
Some of the things I was griping about were mainly on the code-generation part. There are some peculiar quirks when using the Publishing feature available. Since I use Apache/Oracle/PHP/Solaris environment, I think the way Apache handles relative document roots is a bit different than maybe IIS or some other Windows Web Server.
I keep having problems in my generated code such as :
Using sub-directories within my project
admin/index.php
needs to be /admin/index.php in order for Apache to parse the file correctly.
But when I put /admin/index.php in my Data Properties, it generates it as:
admin/index.php
The workaround for all of this is to go in to code mode and hard-code the correct relative path. This is kind of not desirable since the whole purpose of CodeCharge (in my opinion) is to use the global change features in design mode.
Anyway. Just my two-cents again.
Some Positives:
I love the increased built-in classes and functions built-in. Tons more functionality than previous Gen.
Overall I think the biggest problem is that in order to master using the previous CodeCharge 2.X , you really had to depend on adding your own Custom Event Code to really bring out what you needed. This dependancy makes it much harder to transition. Of course i need to give it some more time and be patient.
Thanks.
g.
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Ron Borkent
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| Posted: 06/08/2002, 1:28 AM |
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Hi George, I agree on the problems. I have some problems to with the relative path. Altough I work with apache, PHP under windows I ran into the following problem:
I make new maps for subsections of my company's intranet. This way pages for department A are all in one map, pages for department B in another. Now try and make a different header for say department A and include it into the pages. It wont work. CCS by design, thats what the reply was from Yes, Looks for includes in the root directory. So including a page from a different location will cause errors because it is looking for the page in root.
I agree also on the documentation problem. I don't mind a few bugs in a release, it's part of life these days , I do mind the lack of documentation. I started php about 6 months before and was getting the hang of it, enough to do a lot of custom code in CC. Now everything is object oriented so I have to start again with learning. Not a problem because I like learning, but good documentation and examples is what made me learn fast with CC and the lack of it for CCS is giving me a lot of headackes. I didn't mind when I was fooling around with the beta's but this is a final release and documentation should have been included. New users, not programming in ASP, will mis the PHP documentation as will experienced CC users.
I think you are close with your hypothesis that more attention was given to ASP. I think that is a mistake as over 42 % of the CC users, according to the poll on www.gotocode.com, are PHP programmers.
Yes software has a great product in CCS and their general service level is one of the best I've ever seen. It's features like that that will keep custommers happy. I think that is something they will want to hold on to now that they have a possibility to play with the big boys.
I design the company intranet wich also deals with production info, expense declarations, sickleave administration for the personell department and much more. Company critical info is exchanged thrue this intranet so I cant afford using a tool that isn't well documented because I have to be sure of what I'm doing. The way it is now I will experiment with CCS and rely on CC. That is a shame because CCS has many of the features I'm in need of for some new sections of the intranet. Multiple connections for example is a great feature for me because it allows me to use info from all the company's databases (Oracle(production), MySql(intranet) and Solid(human resource management)) I hope full documentation with good coding examples will come soon so I can switch from CC to CCS.
Ron
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B Watts
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| Posted: 06/08/2002, 3:23 PM |
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I would definitely concur that the product is not ready for
release... I think it is an important product that could be
very useful indeed, but it is far too buggy, incomplete,
and the documentation is woefully inadequate.
BW
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Waldo Thompson
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| Posted: 06/08/2002, 6:01 PM |
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I find this thread very timely, and I thank each of you for your cogent observations. I've worked with Codecharge 2.0, using the 30 day evaluation, and even though the pricing was great, decided not to purchase the product at the time. I've been evaluating CCS and have been oh so close several times to proceeding to purchase the product. I thought it might be a good idea to check out what die-hard users were saying, and ran across this thread.
I generally code with Visual Studio, Homesite, Dreamweaver, and various other apps. I'm very comfortable with ASP/ASP.NET (C#) programming "from scratch", and have been doing so for a long time. My attraction to Codecharge was as a rapid prototypng tool which would allow myself (and my co-workers) a way to rapidly demonstrate site conceps for clients, modifying or finishing the generated code later. Although we're competent in PHP and JSP as well, having the kind of head-start Codecharge seems to give would be a boon. So, I want to purchase the product, but now am unsure whether to buy CC2 or CCS. The troubles of CCS documented with PHP would almost make the tool counterproductive for our needs.
I would appreciate any advice or observations anyone may care to offer.
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Jimbo
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| Posted: 06/08/2002, 9:44 PM |
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Waldo,
CCS makes it difficult to manually edit ASP or PHP, since it uses template files. Still an excellent product. The YesSoftware team should A) get CCS to work without templates for ASP 3 & PHP, and B) get more documentation with examples. Several people around my office won't buy CCS simply because of the template files.
Jimbo
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Brent
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| Posted: 06/08/2002, 10:15 PM |
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George,
>>CCS Relased too early?
What is the alternative? I don't think most people be willing to wait a month
or two for Yes software to put the final touches on it. I agree the PHP
documentation needs work and there are a few bugs or options that need to be
fixed, but CCS is certainly very useable and powerful in its current state.
Granted there is a steeper learning curve with CCS than CC but CCS is far more
powerful and extensible. CCS is brilliantly put together. With that amount of flexibility
it will take a month or two to learn and a person must commit himself or herself to
taking the time to learn it. That's what I'm doing and in a months time I'll be
a lot further ahead than sticking with CC. After using CCS for 5 weeks, I wouldn't
want to go back to CC unless it is a one-off simple application that I wouldn't
have to maintain. If you take the time and effort to learn CCS, six months from
now you'll look back at your CC days and wonder why you didn't switch earlier. Of
course if you don't learn CCS, six months from now you'll be sitting at the same
spot as you are now.<g>
The lack of class documentation may be slowing you down. I shudder to think of
using CC or CCS without a PHP debugger. With a debugger you can see all classes
and their properties as you single step through the application so you know what
properties are available at that time and how to access them. Zend and NuSphere
both have debuggers and there are several cheap alternatives out there too.
Just do a Google search on "PHP debugger".
Brent
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Marco
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| Posted: 06/08/2002, 11:52 PM |
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Hi,
I am using CC 2.x now for 8 months. Before CC I didn't know any word of ASP / Webbased database solutions etc. When I show solutions made with CC all people really don't understand how I was able to make such pro solutions within such little time. CC 2 is a great product not only for prototyping but also for real commecial apps. Let's make clear I am not an IT/programmer but I was able after 2 week to make real great solutions after 3 month I do know and just use 50% of the features in CC. The other 50% feature are never used, so powerfull is CC 2.
CCS is the new and advanced tool for making real webbased apps. It does have more features in it and it has an open interface. It is worth learning this software. Only yuou should be more a IT/programmer/professional!
For anyone starting with CC or CCS. I would advise are you not a programmer use CC are you a programmer use CCS.
I am sure that if CCS 2.0 will come out all of you will say waht a great program it is CC 2.0 + far future like!
If you may have any questions before buying CC or CCS, please don't hesitate to contact me.
Regards,
Marco Groeneveld
m.groeneveld@adenin.nl
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Brent
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| Posted: 06/09/2002, 10:42 AM |
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>>For anyone starting with CC or CCS. I would advise are you not a programmer use CC are you
>>a programmer use CCS.
Yes, I agree with your statement whole heartedly. :)
My previous remarks were directed to programmers and didn't realize (sheepishly)
that CC can be used by non-programmers. CCS will be difficult for non-programmers
and somewhat difficult for programmers without an oop's background. They should
have a thorough knowledge of CC before proceeding to CCS.
Brent
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George L.
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| Posted: 06/09/2002, 1:48 PM |
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Brent.
What is the alternative? Well I would not offer any alternative IDE's at this point. But I would respectfully disagree with you in the regard of "Not willing to wait a month or two" . That, in my opinion would be an alternative. Or even a week or two. The reason why I say this is because of the fact that Yes is not only releasing an IDE for a particular Programming Language, but MANY programming languages.
So in that respect, the testing curve should be greater (or longer) than would be with perhaps one language. I simple feel that some of the different languages aren't as mature as others. Just because on set of people are flying through with virtually no problems, doesn't mean that others are not with some other language template. Unfortunately, I'm in the latter group.
I hold Yes software in HIGH regard, so in turn I hold them to high standards. We have to identify the weakness as well as the "way to go!"s in order to help out Yes the most. That is the only reason why I posed the question in the first place. They certainly have done a pretty good job with previous versions and there support is excellent,(for being exclusively email only).
My question/ comments should not be construed as a reason NOT to purchase Code Charge Studio. But only as a way to spark a discussion on the subject. I have been a participant of the forum since I first started using C.C over a year ago. I have seen the intense hyping that was occurring from many
people wanting to get their hands on C.C.S. High demand is certainly a great motivator to get your product out ASAP, but not the only one. I just hope that this has not been the only reason for releasing the product when it did.
In summary:
The product is ready prime-time, but be fore-warned of the inherent issues/bugs with this particular version and be prepared to implant your own custom coding to alleviate the issues. This means that I would agree that novices (-6 months programming) should step carefully, preferabbly
with another more experienced person.
Also I would HIGHLY recommend to anyone trying CodeCharge Studio, NOT got give up. There is a big learning curve. Do what I did. Print out all of the C.C.- created functions and classes (for your particular language) and read them thoroughly. Particularly some of the ones that migrated from little brother CC 2.X There are new syntax definitions for some of them, such as CCGetDBValue, that should be known. If you learn this, you should be able to work-around most of the initial problems you may run into.
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