Frustated CCS User
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| Posted: 10/31/2002, 10:51 AM |
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Due to the crappy documentation I am spending WAY TOO MUCH TIME trying to figure out how to do things.
Generating the various supplied applications (to get some examples that I will than have to spend time trying to figure out) - than debugging the supplied applications to get them to run. Why aren't all the applications available in CCS????
Will I continue with CCS - Yes I've got too much time invested in it to scrap it now.
Would I recommend CCS -NO. CCS is BETA and a very rough BETA at that
I hope the next release comes with some better documentation (YES Software there are people who write documentation for a living - THEY ARE CALLED TECH WRITERS). I sure hope the next release is a PROFESSIONAL PRODUCT!!!
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imranz
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| Posted: 10/31/2002, 11:06 AM |
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I couldn't disagree more.
It's not a BETA. It's very much a final, and it works as it should in my opinion. And that includes the samples. Yes the documentation isn't great, but that didn't keep me or a lot of the CC community from learning it and excelling with it. The support tutorials really help you get started, and your own knowledge of your coding language of choice should take you wherever else you need to go.
And, of course, the support department is one of the most responsive and knowledgeable about their product that I've encountered in the software industry. And they will help all CodeCharge customers if if they just use the support forum.
CCS is a great tool, with lots of flexibility and functionality, and it does a lot more than any other such tool I've seen.
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Frustated CCS User
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| Posted: 10/31/2002, 11:25 AM |
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Just look at this forum - DB connect problems, can't get supplied applications to run etc. etc. etc.
When I purchased CCS, I didn't know I had to be proficient in CC to use the application. I know PHP and MYSQL, but I bought CCS to speed up my development time. Which means learning how CCS does things - and to do that I have to dive into the supplied applications instead of refer to DOCUMENTATION!!!!!
I have read many times in this forum users having to try figuring out how something works in one of the applications. Nicole on many occasion recommends looking at the supplied applications. I guess YES Software thinks those applications take the place of DOCUMENTATION. THEY DON'T!!!
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marco
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| Posted: 10/31/2002, 12:06 PM |
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I am sorry to see that you are not so productive with CCS as you would expected.
If so, please use first CC and I am sure you are productive as yuou have never expected before. All is in CC. Every time I am using CC and I am not a programmer but a business analist I and more important the end users love the end result.
You can win all projects based on features and fast development. Not only for easy webbased database apps based on ms access but also on high end Oracle database systems.
We are even making modules as addon for Oracle Applications 11i for use in intranet/extranet. Endusers love the fast and easy to use CC solutions.
CCS is more for developers and if you are and you are prepared to spend time choose for CCS. If you don't have time for your projects and you are not a developer choose CC.
I would say: All users worldwide using Excel and Access should buy and use CC as there RAD tool for webbased office solutions. Guarantee!!!
Regards,
Marco
www.gmsbv.nl
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kburnett
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| Posted: 10/31/2002, 3:17 PM |
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i have to side with "Frustated CCS User" on the point that ccs, while labeled 1.x, is still a bit buggy. it think it very well could still be considered beta. but that's ok for the folks who cut their chops in cc.
in the defense of the yes folks, they have been very supportive when i have hit a bug.
as to documentation... folks, there is clearly a need for docs. anyone feeling ambitious? if so, write a book. you have an audience awaiting.
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Tony M
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| Posted: 10/31/2002, 4:36 PM |
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I TOTALLY AGREE with the "Frustrated CCS User"
Many times on this FORUM I have expressed my concerns about the lack of documentation, examples and FAQs etc with STUDIO.
THERE ARE TOO MANY DUPLICATED QUESTIONS with differing or NIL answers.
WHY DO I HAVE TO SEARCH for help on a Combined CodeCharge + STUDIO FORUM
It is a very long time since YES SOFTWARE supplied any...
NEW DOCUMENTATION/EXAMPLES/FAQS or FIXES/UPDATES for STUDIO
In fact it's a very long time since YES SOFTWARE made any announcement
I have spoken to a number of skilled ASP and PHP developers and they are not as productive as they should be with STUDIO.
It is now the 1st of November WHEN ARE YES SOFTWARE going to tell us when we can expect NEW DOCUMENTATION/EXAMPLES/FAQS or FIXES/UPDATES for STUDIO
YES SOFTWARE HAVE BROKEN MANY PROMISES about keeping us informed
JUST ONE EXAMPLE...IF OBJECT CLASSES ARE IMPORTANT...HOW LONG ARE WE GOING TO HAVE TO WAIT BEFORE WE GET ANY PROFESSIONAL DOCUMENTATION TO HELP US UNDERSTAND HOW TO USE THEM...It is now the 1st of November
Tony M
ANOTHER FRUSTRATED STUDIO USER...who hates guessing what to do next  ((
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DeWebDude
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| Posted: 10/31/2002, 8:19 PM |
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i have to agree with "Frustated CCS User", I believe I need a good reference manual when I can't figure something out OR just to be clear. I have read some of the PDF's and used the board with some success. Now if you just want a basic Add/Edit/Delete type of thing, you can smoke, and wrap it up in 5 minutes, but once you get a little complex it's not the same.
I beleive tech support is OK, but I haven't pushed new things on them being a recent buyer of CC I was trying to figure things out for myself.
I can tell you that this board, and the tech support app are not great.
This thing should know what I am replying to, I am logged in so it's should know who I am. Just because it's written in cc, doesn't mean it should be written poorly. Also the tech support form, doesn't always email me when I have a response to an email.
Again I think the product is great in concept and some things, but overall there are some things missing, and quality documentation is one of them.
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feha
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| Posted: 11/01/2002, 2:07 AM |
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I think that CC is perfect!
Only CC alone is worth more than we paid for both(CC+CCS).
I still don't use CCS and still making my projects with CC.
But I can't complain neither my customers, great job.
CCS has is a bit harder to learn (I need more time for CCS).
But If you haven't learnd CCS don't get in adveture in to BIG projects
before You learn the use of CCS.
For all of my projects I'm using CC beacuse I know "how to".
The great CC, You save money and time.
By some time for you using CC while learning CCS.
(At least I'm doing so.)
regards
feha
www.vision.to
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feha
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| Posted: 11/01/2002, 2:20 AM |
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"By some time for you using CC while learning CCS."
should be:
Buy some time for you using CC while learning CCS.
(soorry for typo ...)
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RonB
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| Posted: 11/01/2002, 4:53 AM |
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I partialy agree with you. The documentation and the php documentation in particular is poor. I think however that the lack of documentation isn't the biggest problem here. CCS is a tool for professionals and even though you do not actualy have to do much coding yourself it is important that you understand more then a fair bit of your prefered programming language. CC is what you want if you do not want to delve into the wonderfull world of programming.
I think there are a lot of people who moved to CCS thinking it would be more like their CC experience. You might say Yes should do more PR so the right consumer group is targeted. I'm glad they didn't because it forced me to dig in and learn but I can understand why there are a lot of people who expected the speed of CC in developing their sites and got burned.
The basics of CC are quick to master and that's mainly because it isn't halve as much object oriented as CCS is. I'm considering following a course in OOP PHP just so I can understand more of what is going on behind the scenes in CCS. I recently finished an intranet for my company(400+ users) and it took me a few months to complete. I don't complain because most of that time was spend learning new and exciting php stuff. I have the luxury of being the only one in my company who knows how to do PHP so I can take my time to learn.
Because of doing the intranet I've now learned enough to move on to some serious webapplications.
I think I so far only scratched the surface of what I can do with CCS and wouldn't dream of going back to CC.
Ron
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imranz
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| Posted: 11/01/2002, 10:58 AM |
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RonB, I'm with you 100%
It's a great tool, much better than 1.x products EVER are, and in under a month, I feel almost proficient with it. No weird hidden functionality. It's all there, right in front of you, in the places where you'd expect it. IF you're a programmer.
I've said many times over, if you're not a programmer, you may not find too much success in CCS. You're better off with CC, which is still a GREAT product. I've done a lot of sites with original CC, and I still use it for the sites I haven't bothered to convert.
But as a programmer, once I moved to CCS, I found all the flexibility I was looking for. And yes, this was at the expense of ease of use. That is the nature of flexibility; the application does less for you, but it enables you to do more that requires you to go outside the original scope of the application. It's a BENEFIT, not a bug.
I'm willing to bet that if you are not succeeding with CodeCharge Studio, that you would find equivalent failure in using something like Visual Studio. It's a programmer's tool.
Bottom line: Don't expect an application to turn you from a web designer into a web developer. That requires time, research, study and experience. But original CC sure does let you feel like a programmer, when you look at the end result!
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Tony M
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| Posted: 11/01/2002, 12:32 PM |
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To Imranz, RonB and anyone else who knows and understands Studio
I said earlier...
"...IF OBJECT CLASSES ARE IMPORTANT...HOW LONG ARE WE GOING TO HAVE TO WAIT BEFORE WE GET ANY PROFESSIONAL DOCUMENTATION TO HELP US UNDERSTAND HOW TO USE THEM..."
Have you managed to work out how to use "OBJECT CLASSES" effectively and proficiently in STUDIO
Your comments would be appreciated
Regards
Tony M
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DaveRexel
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| Posted: 11/01/2002, 1:25 PM |
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>>>>>>>>>>
Popped in here and it feels like a time-warp!
Nothings changed, for want of better docs a lot of good people waste valuable time peering through reams of application-code to find clues on how to use CCS.
Look at this long thread from May:
http://www.gotocode.com/disc_viewt.asp?mid=10752&
The issue was then and is now lack of detailed documentation with several examples for each class, function and method. Preparing a separate download with many smaller CCS example apps each designed to illustrate the reference would be a good complement to said reference. Oh, and I'm still waiting for the vapourlike SDK.
SOME ISSUES still outstanding since the release :
Where is the programming reference on how the XML/XLT variables fit into the
whole CCS plug-in structure? Or even what they are called...
YS even told me that documentation on writing plug-ins was on the way, in May.
The single most irritating feature is the fact that the
CCS-IDE allows dragging of the component-tag-badges to anywhere in
Design-mode with the page then being fubar!!
Why haven't CCS-developers added constraints on such page-destroying IDE
anomlies?? Constraints please, CCS-team, pretty please?
CCS frequently mangles javascripts who're quietly minding their own business outside of CCS repeat-blocks and the like...
Some detailed examples on the JavaScript Events available in the Proprties/Format panel are still forthcoming.
All the frustration not to mention loss of hair and time for programmers, dabblers and newbies is not condusive to user loyalty.
It would make sense for YS to concentrate on the speedy release of proper documentation and a minor version update to address some users reports of instability and other outstanding issues.
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DaveRexel
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| Posted: 11/01/2002, 2:27 PM |
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Sorry about the spelling mistakes above, I hit [enter] while pounding my table, (Why am I so hot blooded?), anyway, it's all in good fun.
Greetings
Dave
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Char
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| Posted: 11/01/2002, 4:00 PM |
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Have to agree with Frustrated. I am a programmer and database developer. I purchased CCS to speed up developing of major web applications. If YS doesn't produce some decent documentation soon I won't be wasting any more monies here for upgrades.
I am sorry to hear these same things were being discussed in May. It is now November, obviously YS didn't take those discussions seriously.
As is the case with many programmers - documentation is thought of last and is therefore done poorly. CCS is a major application which deserves major documentation. I've gotten better documentation from the Open Source projects at SourceForge.Net
If YS wants to be a major player in the RAD market they had better bring more to the table than they have provided so far.
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Clarion
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| Posted: 11/02/2002, 7:57 PM |
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Every tool has its rough ends. If you want to make the max of anything, you have to get more familiar with it. Then you will be able to utilize all of its power. If you want to use a product, expect to spend some time figuring out how it works.
You say you wouldnt recommend CCS. Can you please point us to a RAD web application development tool that is better than CCS?
I can only see CCS getting better.
Regards,
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imranz
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| Posted: 11/04/2002, 7:39 AM |
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I've been seeing YesSoftware's products get better and better. Only forward motion. You can only do so much so fast, and you can only please half of the people half of the time or some of the people some of the time yadda yadda.
Could everyone just please lighten up.
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Tony M
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| Posted: 11/04/2002, 12:55 PM |
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I agree with other Frustrated users...
YES SOFTWARE...Have not kept their promises to update the "Knowledge Base"
at...http://support.codecharge.com/kb_search.asp
Everyone can see this...from the individual posting dates for...
1 - FAQs
2 - How To
3 - Trouble Shooting
They MUST KEEP THE "Knowledge Base" updated
They cannot have any excuses...because they must answer at least FIVE NEW CC and FIVE NEW Studio questions each week.
Imagine how much frustration, duplication of effort and time...they could have saved users...if those answers were in the "Knowledge Base"
It is now Monday the 4th of November...perhaps we will get answers/fixes/updates or some response/explanation from YES SOFTWARE this week...maybe next week...or maybe the week after...or not
Another frustrated Studio user
Tony M
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John Horton
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| Posted: 11/11/2002, 12:14 PM |
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It's defeated me. good luck to the rest of you
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Eladesor
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| Posted: 11/11/2002, 12:37 PM |
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John Horton:
Don't give up John, the long term benefits far out way the frustration we sometimes go through.
Apart from this forum, have you took a look at the new community for CC / CCS users http://www.CodeChargers.com – why not come along and join us, post a few questions and see if others can help you a little – anything’s worth a try?
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Edd
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| Posted: 11/12/2002, 3:42 PM |
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Perspective People:
1. This is VERSION 1 - How many Version 1's are this good!!! (see Microsoft)
2. It costs $280 - As a senior consultant the cost of good documentation has always been equal to the cost of development. Do you want to pay $560 and let's face it doco will always be understated.
3. It is a good (no GREAT) product - I would be STUFFED without it. How many generators out there disappear into "DLL's" and if the product has a bug in it you have to wait for the next release (6 months generally a year). At least you can dive into the generated code and tweak until a release / fix comes.
4. The best documention is the REAL world - people like yourselves - www.codechargers.com has already saved me let's use it.
5. There MUST be budding "CodeCharge Studio for Dummies" authors out there to help the newbies - let's encourage that avenue as well. There are NO FREE LUNCHES.
I know YES are working on a new release and I think / hope you will see dramatic additions to the documentation - but don't ever count on things you can't control - let's encourage www.codechargers.com to build a great knowledgebase.
My two penneth.
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