Mike B
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| Posted: 11/07/2002, 10:38 AM |
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On my last thread "Why community" there were many reactions. But none of YesSoftware.
I tried to keep it positive, to give YesSoftware an opportunity to react and to discuss the future.
But it gives me the impression that CC and CCS are almost dead. No support, no updates, no reactions.
Ok, let's use this bulletin board to discuss what's the best alternative for CC and CCS.
Can you give me the name, whether it's difficult or easy to learn, and for which platforms?
Any reaction is welcome (even from YesSoftware)
If I have more reactions I can open a voting system.
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Drake S.
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| Posted: 11/07/2002, 12:02 PM |
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Personally, I think they only thing that will work for you is divine intervention. You undoubtedly are as clueless as they come and you surely give credence to the saying that empty tins make the most noise. A large part of the problem with this board is that you and a bunch of other similarly inept folks (not many but, loud as usual) think that your ignorance is reflective of all CodeCharge or CodeCharge Studio users. You seem to forget that there are people who have sufficient education to wield a tool such as CodeCharge Studio. On the other hand, there are those whom a tool such as this would give them enough rope to hang themselves with...and you seem to be in the advanced stages of doing just that.
Personally, I think no software should be disgraced by being used by people who haven't a grasp of basic principles. Being able to buy the software does not necessary imply that you have the intelligence to use it. Personally I know of collegues who use CCS to produce prototypes in half the usual time and undergrad CS students who whip out complex course projects within the duration on the 30 day trial period. So bear in mind that whereas you seem to need an education out of CodeCharge products, the versed web developers uses the tool for automation. But of course you cannot comprehend or appreciate the degree of automation provided unless you have prior experience writing the code manually.
There was a time when developers with skill frequented this board but with time, you get to learn that the task of building a roof on no foundation is NP complete. And that 'no foundation' is epitomized by the 'pretenders' with little or no skill in the technologies used who end up crying foul when it dawns on them that they can't hack it. So it comes down to 'ride on, and let sleeping dogs lie'. Ultimately, you can cry a river but at some point, you'll need to build a bridge and get over it.
And as far as alternatives are concerned, allow me to suggest Visual Studio .Net, the most powerful RAD tool of all time. You will find that it not only gives you enough rope to hang yourself with, but also provides you with adequate instructions on how to proceed. That is unless of course you learn that you need learn how to crawl before you can walk or run, regardless of what shoe you wear.
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EMG
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| Posted: 11/07/2002, 1:09 PM |
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well said drake. To offer a voting system to identify better alternatives tells us what some users are doing with their time.
Sorry if I'm offending anyone, but this whole drama has really spiced up my week!
Now back to work!
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Steven
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| Posted: 11/07/2002, 1:21 PM |
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I honestly cannot see what your problem is with Yes Software..
I cannot possibly be the only person that they answer from their support forms
And I cannot say that I have had anything 'except' great and prompt service from their support form.
It seems that if you request, you do get.
Does no one else use the support.codecharge.com request pages?
Steven Dowd
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imranz
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| Posted: 11/07/2002, 1:41 PM |
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I use support.codecharge.com with great success. I don't think it has been that long since the last update to CCS (the VB .Net thing was most recent). I think it's a great product. I think the usable functions ARE documented (though maybe not thoroughly), and I know for a fact that between the doc and support, all answers are always answered. It's been that way for me for almost 2 years now.
A big part of the problem is that many of those posting loudly on this board are assuming that you can go from being a web designer to a web programmer within the few short weeks you have in the trial period of the software. It's just not reasonable.
If you are a purchaser of the software with a valid serial, and you use support.codecharge.com, I doubt you are disappointed with their assistance.
Most importantly, software does not make you an expert. It's just a tool. I challenge anyone to build a database, and then create a site around it in Visual Studio, and then do the same in CodeCharge Studio. The experiment would speak for itself.
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Willis
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| Posted: 11/07/2002, 2:48 PM |
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Drake S. I say Amen! Amen! Amen!
I have wondered for a while now whether CC and CCS are intentionalty marketed to novice users who don't know what's cutting. Apart from the likes of Imranz, Noble and afew other, most posting made here don't have much import. I am a MSCIT student and though I was bummed that there was no student pricing, I am on track to competing my professional project ahead of time ... and largely because of the automation provided by CCS.
I also want to second the notion that you don't become a web developer simply by purchasing CCS. Even with RAD tools like Visual Studio, it still takes a programmer who knows C++ at least 6 months to become productive, and the MSCD certification track takes in excess of a year. A bunch of folks it seems, are expecting to be able to perform at the same level as experienced developers and yet they don't know the language itself. If you are using ASP & Templates and don't know ASP to begin with, you obviously are not going to get very far with event code. ASP, C#, VB.Net, PHP, Java, JSP, Perl, Cold Fusion, XML, XSL, XSLT, CCS, HTML - all of which are used in CCS. Now surely you don't expect YesSoftware to teach you these technologies.
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A. Smith
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| Posted: 11/07/2002, 3:19 PM |
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Being a Web developer by profession (i.e went to school for it), I have to confess that I go to great pains to conceal the fact that I use CCS...for the simple fact that I don't want the competition catching on. I also think it would be tragic if every Tom, Dick or Harry could spin out web applications simply buying CCS. The recent flurry of whinnings tells me that this is not the case. However, I will go so far as to recommend to Mike that he checkout Ultradev/DreamWeaver MX and Clarion. Hopefully, after wielding a couple of different tools, you'll find that the end result has alot to do with the skill of the user.
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feha
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| Posted: 11/07/2002, 4:15 PM |
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I'm affraid there is no alternative for CC.
The best tool around.
As I said it is TOOL to cut your time on big projects...
CC is the best one.(at least for Me  )
regards
feha
www.vision.to
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JR
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| Posted: 11/07/2002, 5:23 PM |
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The Pompous tone of Drake S is certainly pitiful, even though it is redeemed by the truth in the meat and potatoes of his rant. Good thoughts..get some humility or empathy.(Either one ..your choice)
However, Willis point is also valid
"I have wondered for a while now whether CC and CCS are intentionalty marketed to novice users who don't know what's cutting"
Being one of those users, I can say that even after the trial period (Of which a chuck of time was made getting a connection to work(not all YES's fault) and sort of realizing that I might be out of my depth, I went ahead and purchased the product thinking that "Eureka" might strike at any moment. I have the misplaced pride that if a relative novice can use a program...I will "get it" sooner rather than later. THis is my first experience where this has not been the case
I sort of wish I had read Imranz comments about CC vs CCS before I made the purchase, however, each time I make a little breakthrough, I find the problem has been my fault about 70% of the time..and lack of documentation pretty much covers the rest.
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Tony M
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| Posted: 11/07/2002, 8:54 PM |
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I don't wish to see an alternative to CC or Studio
Both products enable me to write "Browser Based" applications...something I didn't think I would be doing so quickly.
I just want to learn faster and be more productive...I cannot keep writing to Tech support or the Forum/Newsgroup to get help when I get stuck.
I hate to repeat this...BUT...
What this Forum needs is a unified voice to persuade YES SOFTWARE to honour their promise to..."Keep the Knowledge Base Updated"...This is a very simple task.
YES SOFTWARE MUST STOP... the frustration, duplication of effort and time wasted by users...AND THEMSELVES...and put their LOGGED SUPPORT ANSWERS ETC into the "Knowledge Base"
This will centralise information as YES SOFTWARE initially intended and help focus and unite the Community/Forum and encourage more "Givers" and others to take part.
Regards
Tony M
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Tony M
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| Posted: 11/07/2002, 8:54 PM |
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To
RonB and imranz
We all know the CC/Studio products and the "Email Support System" is good etc...etc...etc
All myself and others are trying to do is get some response from YES SOFTWARE on this Forum.
If you think that YES SOFTWARE should NOT HONOUR THEIR PROMISE to..."Keep the Knowledge Base Updated"...a very simple task...Then please say so
It just seems that your are speaking up for the silent YES SOFTWARE...AND lIKE THEM YOU ARE NOT ANSWERING A VERY DIRECT QUESTION.
Regards
Tony M
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RonB
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| Posted: 11/08/2002, 3:52 AM |
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Come on guys be fair. It's a great product, support from the supportsytem is excelent, time between updates is normal... but the documentation sucks. Just the plain thruth. It doesn't matter if you're a beginner or an expert coder or somewhere in between. There will, absolutely, come a time where what you want to do with ccs is being frustrated because of the lack of documentation.
In CC I could look at other php sources and find the thing I wanted to do, alter the code and almost cut and past the stuff into CC. With CCS this is almost impossible because of the extensive OOP style. That means you have to learn more. I dont mind learning so I go out into the world and try to find what I need (by the way does anybody know of a decent book on OOP php programming
So I guess what I'm trying to say is this:
- if your an expert quit bashing the newbies, there was a time you were one to.
- if your a beginner quit whining about the difficulty of CCS. If you dont know how to do something go out and learn(this forum, newsgroups, websites for your flavour of programming language etc.)
Being a beginner is no excuse for whining and you're only an expert when you not only know a lot but also know how to share that knowledge with others(otherwise you're just a selfindulging nerd).
RonB
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imranz
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| Posted: 11/08/2002, 10:43 AM |
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Hear hear, RonB!
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Tony M
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| Posted: 11/08/2002, 11:34 AM |
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To
RonB and imranz
We all know the CC/Studio products and the "Email Support System" is good etc...etc...etc
All myself and others are trying to do is get some response from YES SOFTWARE on this Forum.
If you think that YES SOFTWARE should NOT HONOUR THEIR PROMISE to..."Keep the Knowledge Base Updated"...a very simple task...Then please say so
It just seems that your are speaking up for the silent YES SOFTWARE...AND lIKE THEM YOU ARE NOT ANSWERING A VERY DIRECT QUESTION.
Regards
Tony M
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