Paul Wang
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| Posted: 03/04/2003, 6:39 PM |
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I have recently tap into CCS and I was amazed by the ideaes it brings. After carefully evaluation and spending a lot of time online looking through the documentations and discussions, I am afraid to say this software is not able to meet the requirement of any complicated website design needs.
First of the major problem with CCS is that CCS does not have a build-in way of handling n-to-n relationship tables. n-to-n relationship means in a SQL database, where you have two table A and B and the relationship between A and B is infinity to infinity, you must create another table C to map the relationship. This type of relationship is essential in any kind of complex database. For example, the relationship between products and models, the relationship between cell phone carriers and phone models, the relationship between which department can access which webpage, the relationship between I want to emphasize on how puzzled I am because I looked everywhere and no one even asked about this question.
Second, the CCS uses template files that has the extension .html. For most of the servers out there, .html has higher priority of execution than .php or .asp. This means if people just type in www.website.com, they will get the template index.html instead of the index.php or index.asp as expected.
Even though this can be changed through configuration of the web server, but many people do not have the rights to change the configuration of their web server, believe it or not. Even if they could, not everyone know how to change it. Then again, is it neccessary to use .html as the extension? I don't think so. CCS should have name it .ccstemplate or something without even effecting any results.
There are still many places where CCS need to work on before it can become a commonly used tool for major website designers out there.
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Steven
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| Posted: 03/04/2003, 7:49 PM |
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I do agree with u that CCS is not a good tool for complex web designers who want simple way out.
As far as most devloper concerns, if the product can fullfill 80% of the user requirements why bother with the 20% whom only looking for simple and easy ways to develop complex website - Go and buy expensive software (BTW expensive does not mean super)....
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RonB
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| Posted: 03/05/2003, 12:54 AM |
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I do not agree. Just because the wizzard doesn't give you the many to many options doesn't mean you cant do it. Anything you can do with sql can be handled by CCS. If you design the database and use primary and foreign keys you can use the sql builder to create the joins. Even the connection with the third table you describe can easely be made eithet with sql builder or by doing the sql yourself.
The wizzards are nice but I seldom rely on them because they are just a quick way of doing standard things. But the wizzards do allow you to use the query builder so even there you can create a grid with the options you describe. For serious webapplications CCS is an excelent tool because it allows you do do the simple things quick with wizzards while still giving you the possibilities to do all the complicated stuff within the program. I've toyed around with visual studio and visual .net but the fact that almost every second step requires you to hand code is just not appealing to me. I mean get real. What's the point of creating a grid for you when you then have to handcode the code that fills it with the data. What else could a grid be for? Visual Studio also locks you in to the MS framework while CCS will just port the code to java, asp, vb.net, php, perl etc. All you have to change is your custom code. I havent come acros anything that couldn't be done with CCS and I designed an Intranet and several Managment info webapp's that handle serious data and give acces to Oracle, sql server and MySQL. I'm pleased with the program and I'm sure it will get better and better in the future.
Ron
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TonyK
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| Posted: 03/05/2003, 2:56 AM |
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I agree with RonB.
What is needed, and fairly urgently I think, is much more in-depth documentation that could reveal the true breadth of this system.
Also these support pages while good are hell if you are looking for information.
Could I suggest that a repository of definitive answers is produced. To some extent it exists already but it is very incomplete.
A site that had a much more structured approach to support would be sensible. You could have sections for dealing with the GUI, variable manipulation, sql building, etc. and sections that deal with peculiarities relevant to individual languages i.e. php, asp ...
Just a thought.
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TonyK
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| Posted: 03/05/2003, 3:07 AM |
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And a plea...
When people find the answer to a problem please share it with the community.
Comments such as '..found the information I needed and now have it working...appreciate the help.' can be very frustrating.
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Simon
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| Posted: 03/05/2003, 4:10 AM |
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I agree that CCS is a very powerful tool and can create most pages you need, but I also agree that the community, documentation etc is not very good. But then I suppose it is because the program isn't as popular as some of the bigger tools and hence there are not as many 'developer' sites, something like flashkit for CCS would be brilliant!
Simon
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EMG
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| Posted: 03/05/2003, 6:35 AM |
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Wang,
I have used them all, .NET, VS, Dreamweaver, Frontpage, etc. and CCS is by FAR the best. Many to many relationships are not resolved by an interface development tool but proper db normalization. For me and many others CCS IS THE commonly used tool for major website [development]. CCS doesn't do it all, but then again cars still require a licensed driver. Don't give up on CCS, it is tried and true.
EMG
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feha
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| Posted: 03/05/2003, 8:37 AM |
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CC and CCS is the best IDE ever.
It just needs more info and tutorials.
regards
feha
[www.vision.to]
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mart
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| Posted: 03/05/2003, 12:52 PM |
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I found that most of "hardcore proffessional programmers" on all forums hate any type of code generators and state that hand-coding in the notepad is the only way.
On the other hand they highly recommend encapsulating common tasks into SUBS, Functions and classes thus creating some sort of libraries and even try selling them as RAD systems.
I, personally, do not see any point in re-inventing anything over and over again.
CC & CCS are the best RAD tools .
Of course, they are not perfect as VS.NET or Dreamweaver MX but you can save tremendous amount of time by correcting or adding 1-2 things instead of re-inventing the whole system.
There are other "systems" on the market which can do some of the things that CCS can't, but are you willing to pay $20,000 for ASP.NET class libraries?
Go to: www.pdsa.com and compare.
The thing is that you can't even use their $20,000 system without VS.NET installed.
I think that www.pdsa.com's system is the best ad for CCS!
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Eve
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| Posted: 03/05/2003, 3:07 PM |
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anybody tried aspdb
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Paul Wang
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| Posted: 03/05/2003, 3:54 PM |
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Just to try to be of use </FLAME OFF> 
You say...
<cut>
if people just type in www.website.com, they will get the template index.html instead of the index.php or index.asp as expected.
</cut>
In php I can create a simple page (not generated with Codecharge) called index.php (with no index.html template).
This page contains:
<?php header("Location: main.php"); ?>
This redirect to my main page (Codecharge generated) main.php (with main.html template).
I don't know asp, but I don't think you are obliged to call your default Codecharge generated page index.asp or default.asp, so you can use the same technique.
Richi
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Labs4.com
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| Posted: 03/05/2003, 4:26 PM |
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I must say that CSS helped me to shorten development time from months to days from initial idea and it's really worth the price even that you have to learn something about used classes (the best way is to read Classes.php and Common.php first to see how it works).
The solution for your problem with .html templates is
- create file .htaccess
- enter row
DirectoryIndex index.php index.html
- save it and upload into your root directory or into any directory you want to use it, then you will have no problem at all (works on Apache, I have no experience with IIS).
Josef
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Tony M
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| Posted: 03/05/2003, 4:29 PM |
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With Studio Two almost here...our prayers may be also be answered with the much asked for...and promised documentation and examples.
BUT as a forum need to speak as 'one voice' if we want to get YesSoftware to respond to our needs.
I hate repeating myself BUT...
A simple short term solution for many frustrated users...and less duplication of effort by SUPPORT STAFF...MUST be...Regular Updates to the "Studio's comprehensive Online Knowledge Base + FAQ + HowTo system"
Just how long does it take...to cut/paste...each week to the web...a few repeatedly re-solved questions...answered by the Support Team...for all to see etc
Studio Knowledge Base Updates...as at 4 March...
Jun - 10
Jul - 6
Aug - 1
Sep - 3
Oct - ZERO
Nov - 15
Dec - 12
Jan - 3
Feb - 1
Answer please YesSoftware...
Just how long does it take...to cut/paste...each week to the web...a few repeatedly re-solved questions...answered by the Support Team...for all to see etc
Regards
Tony M
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Jer
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| Posted: 03/06/2003, 3:56 PM |
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Second, the CCS uses template files that has the extension .html. For most of the servers out there, .html has higher priority of execution than .php or .asp. This means if people just type in www.website.com, they will get the template index.html instead of the index.php or index.asp as expected.
** Real simple solution.
I simply changed the variable for the path location with a constant that has the path to the template folder. I have my templates in a separate hidden directory. This is really a non-issue.
Jer
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Edd
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| Posted: 03/06/2003, 6:44 PM |
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Dear Mr Wang,
Oh wise one give us your fantastic alternative - so we may seek your omnipotent wisdom.
If you have, as I have tried every product in the ASP world - from deamweaver to ASPGrid, etc, etc, etc and have found that they MOST are centered around proprietary com objects which cannot be tweaked to suit your environment.
CCS (and Yes Software) have never failed me in product and support. I can't say the same for all the other's I have tried.
I think CCS targets the small to mid range market beautifully and gives me THE COMPETITIVE EDGE I want.
My two penneth.
Edd
P.S. Why do people always want to criticise products they won't use - I suppose they have nothing else to do with their lives except P*** ME OFF
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Code Rookie
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| Posted: 03/06/2003, 7:30 PM |
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Default.asp is for stock MS servers.
index.html is for a stock Apache server.
Any web server that has ability to process pages on the server side should already be cofigured to do .asp or .php as priority and other as 2nd or 3rd. If they are not configured as so, and you cannot change this, you should find another host to suit your web design needs, or don't even generate a default page - do it by hand instead. I am fortunate enough to be running my own web servers. Decide for your self what you want search engines to index (my choice has always been .htm, so I do not use cc to generate this one). All in all, I think that CC is the choice for learning the cc method, I am almost ready for CCS! And, I agree that not every question gets answered here - probably because I think it's very difficult to describe all of our questions! It's Been Super Duper to me for only 150 bucks.
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mclare
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| Posted: 03/06/2003, 10:14 PM |
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Major problems??? No Mr. Wang, whilst there are several bugs that do annoy me, the BENEFITS that CCS gives the PROGRAMMER (Remember that term from yesteryear), namely me, in phenomemal. A totally agree with Edd just above me, and like others I have tried other "Development" tools and they have come up FAR short of the bar that YesSoftware has now set so high.
I think someone forgot that this is a "Tool" and as like a rake, cannot do what a shovel does better. Get out your SQL programmers reference and do some hand coding and I GAURENTEE that you will be able to do some SERIOUS applications.
I can not wait for the IPO as I have already called my broker and let him know of the joys that this $279.00 jewel has brought me.
What took me weeks now takes me hours and I can now concentrate on the "frills" now that CCS takes care of the drudgery that was once dreaded...
As for your heirarchy problem, I think other actual "Programmers" have given you several other solutions here that I will not renumerate again. Suffice to say that there has not been much that can not be done in CCS...
M Clare
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Dunkie
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| Posted: 04/29/2003, 9:17 AM |
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While this post is very old.... I wish to throw in a word of praise for CCS... I was a firm believer in the "HARD CORE" way of doing systems... but enter CCS and now I can whip up a whole complex working system in a matter of hours (if I'm not poring through the documentation - or lack of it).... while Paul Wang mentions a few things here and there... it's the same with all other apps... your DB must be normalized outside and all complex stuff you need can be written as custom code.
All the Yes guys need to do is throw in more tips & tricks, chronologically archive their KB and FINALLY.... HELP people get real solutions to some of the commonly repeated questions like "Depended list boxes", "date based problems" etc....
Otherwise... I give CCS 8 or 10!!!!!
Cheers!
Dunkie
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RG
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| Posted: 04/29/2003, 11:07 AM |
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I like it that unlike others Yes implements and improves CCS according to what you and I need and not what they think has to be. In a sense we are involved in the improvement of the tool that we use. I tried Macromedia Dreamweaver, MS Frontpage and so on but I can not call them my tools (have to check Apple Webobjects yet). They all have a big learning curve and What bothers me specially about them is that you have to pay for every little useful add-on. Good Designs and nice graphics are anyways tool independent even though Yes could help us non graphic-designers there a little bit.
I was a hardcore programmer and was working in a team of seven. With CCS I do the same job in the same time alone.
I think what makes CCS look poor is the permanent crashing. There is also still room for more and better documentation. If it is still not good enough for you then you chose probably the wrong job.
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Karim
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| Posted: 04/29/2003, 11:47 AM |
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Okay, since I've been asking so many questions myself, in the next couple of days I will reply with a synopsis of all the IDEs I've used or evaluated in the past. They include vbsdb, aspdb, aspgrid, etouchDB similar in concept with CCS but without a front-end gui builder and many more.
Thanks,
Karim
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