Angelo
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| Posted: 05/06/2003, 7:09 AM |
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I asked yes software about the future of Codde charge Standard, below was the reply.
At least it shows they are atleast thinking about taking things forward, alas it doesn't look like the route I'd have liked to have seen, I wouldn't use net objects fusion if you paid me.
And given that my CC AND CCS is now disabled thanks to windows XP atomatic "patches". Oh and just to add cream to the cake, the patch that is assumed to have screwed up CC mentioned earlier in the forums isn't even on my machine.
To say I'm pretty p*ssed off right now would be an understatement.
Anyway the Official reply was
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1. We do not underestimate how many happy CC customers we have. We know their exact number 
2. CCS is considered an upgrade to CC by us. It was created specifically to resolve some limitations of CC and generally improve on CC. To create CCS, we took the core of CC, added an HTML and Code editor, then started enhancing it.
It appears to be much different from CC, but if today the users asked us to add HTML and code editing features to CC to achieve 2-way code generation, then the result would be the same: CCS.
3. CC has potential future if it is integrated with NetObjects Fusion. We are currently in discussions with NetObjects (Website Pros) and waiting for the result.
4. We have other plans that may satisfy CC users, which I cannot disclose at this time.
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RipCurl
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| Posted: 05/06/2003, 2:36 PM |
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1. if they do know, then they should know that by forcing CC users to upgrade to CCS (which i considered bloated, and buggy), they will lose those CC users to other software.
2. If i wanted an html editor, i would use Dreamweaver or similar. CC has alwasy been in my eyes, only for coding purposes. AN upgrade to CC is NOT CCS . And upgrade to CC would be a better custom code feature ( a way to implement your own custom code and keep it ) and the ability to recognize edited HTML documents for templates done outside of CC (ie Dreamweaver) and incorporate that into its publishing.
3. I have no intersted in NETobjects Fusion either.
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Angelo
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| Posted: 05/06/2003, 3:59 PM |
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Talking of other software, does anyone know of any other code generation software that works like CC?
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Bobby
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| Posted: 05/06/2003, 11:02 PM |
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Checkout PEAR - It's now part of PHP. You can create 'class' objects from a table or view then generate templates with several different pear packages.
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rclayh
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| Posted: 05/07/2003, 4:28 AM |
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I tried both the trial of CC and CCS before choosing. CCS is definitely an upgrade to CC. I can't imagine wanting to use CC after having used CCS.
I also use Dreamweaver MX, and I used it for my coding. Now I use CCS and DWMX together and find that my coding time has been slashed by at least 90%. It also has taken a lot of the pain out of prototyping application. The 90% I save in coding - I reinvest in improving the appearance and usuability of the app.
CCS is a little buggy, but so is Dreamweaver, and Visual Studio. But it gets the job done and saves me a lot of time.
CCS easily pays for itself in the first project you use it for.
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RipCurl
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| Posted: 05/07/2003, 11:09 AM |
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"I tried both the trial of CC and CCS before choosing. CCS is definitely an upgrade to CC. I can't imagine wanting to use CC after having used CCS."
And I went straight for CC. CCS is buggy, hast the worst html editor (which I dont see why is needed). And their relational scheme is hardly straightfoward, as it is with CC.
"I also use Dreamweaver MX, and I used it for my coding. Now I use CCS and DWMX together and find that my coding time has been slashed by at least 90%. It also has taken a lot of the pain out of prototyping application. The 90% I save in coding - I reinvest in improving the appearance and usuability of the app."
And the only thing i want for CC to do is recognize edited template html files so it does cut down on coding. IT does not need and html editor to do this.
"CCS is a little buggy, but so is Dreamweaver, and Visual Studio. But it gets the job done and saves me a lot of time."
CCS crashes 70% more often than Dreamweaver does. I've had DW crash on me once, and that's due to installing a 3rd party Extension. Removed that, and DW works fine.
"CCS easily pays for itself in the first project you use it for. "
Or do 1 project in CC and you can buy two copies.
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Steven
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| Posted: 05/07/2003, 4:13 PM |
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There are a few other programs available which use a similar system to CC and produce php asp coldfusion etc codes
http://www.codejay.com/description.asp
this is ok. different than CC but similar in some ways
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No Name
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| Posted: 05/08/2003, 3:30 PM |
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I downloaded this today. It's OK but it cannot compete with CC or CCS.
The User Interface is not intuitive. It is more confusing that that produced by YS, HOWEVER at approx US$100.00 it's a BARGAIN. -- Watch-out YesSoftware, there are working alternatives to bloated and over-proced software!
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rclayh
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| Posted: 05/09/2003, 4:56 AM |
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"And I went straight for CC. CCS is buggy, hast the worst html editor (which I dont see why is needed). And their relational scheme is hardly straightfoward, as it is with CC."
CCS has the worst html editor? Hardly. I don't know how many html tools you've used but CCS is far from the worst. My clients don't care how straightforward the relational scheme is, as long as it works - and it does.
"And the only thing i want for CC to do is recognize edited template html files so it does cut down on coding. IT does not need and html editor to do this."
So don't use it, in fact - please don't use it. I need all the competitive advantages I can get.
"CCS crashes 70% more often than Dreamweaver does. I've had DW crash on me once, and that's due to installing a 3rd party Extension. Removed that, and DW works fine."
I'm not sure which CCS you're using. I've been using CCS for a couple of weeks on a very large project and it hasn't crashed once. I did have to END NOW Dreamweaver once because it had gotten the FTP upload brainfarts. So in my experience Dreamweaver crashes 100% more than CCS.
"Or do 1 project in CC and you can buy two copies."
I didn't use CC enough to really know for sure, but I'm going to say that CC takes about twice as long to do the same thing as CCS, so I don't think you save as much. And over a period of several projects you'd be losing time. My business revolves around acquiring and keeping new customers. I'm not in an IT shop where I only have 1 customer and I can "nurse" a project (and I'm not saying that's what you do - just that I've seen it done). In my business time recovered is time to acquire new customers. Code Charge Studio may literally allow me to double my sales this year - even if it does crash a couple of times (which so far it hasn't).
I have absolutely no problem with you using whatever tool you want to use but if Code Charge does what you want it to do - then you got what you wanted out of it. I really don't understand all the negative post about Studio, unless it is people experiencing beta frustration. My experience has been very positive and Code Charge took a couple of projects from development to completion right away. I regenerated a Dreamweaver app that took 1 month in 3 hours with new functionality. I can't tell you how numb my mind was generating forms in Dreamweaver when much of it was extremely repetitive tasks that could have been automated.
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RipCurl
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| Posted: 05/09/2003, 11:05 AM |
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"CCS has the worst html editor? Hardly. I don't know how many html tools you've used but CCS is far from the worst. My clients don't care how straightforward the relational scheme is, as long as it works - and it does."
Let see, Dreamweaver since DW 2 (now i have ultdra dev 4 and DWMX), Adobe PageMill, Frontpage (the last I would on the face of this earth - but I DO know how to use it), for WYSIWYG editors; I also use HTML EDit Pro, CofeeCup, NoteTab Pro, NotePad, and TopStyle for CSS files. Not enough? Since all these better programs exist, why does CCS need an HTML editor?
What CC SHOULD do is have a part of the program where it asks you where/what program you use as an HTML editor and open that program. How Word will look for your photo-editing/image editing software (ie Photoshop) and upate the Word Document as you "edit" your image/photo.
CCS is made "almost" useles because of inclusion of their substandard WysiWyg Editor.
As for relational scheme, Im not talking about Clients. IM talking about hte person who has to code for those clients. CCS makes it harder to do relationals correctly.
"So don't use it, in fact - please don't use it. I need all the competitive advantages I can get."
Oh, I'll keep on using it and I WILL keep on complaining about since CC is far better than CCS and other programs out there, and has room for improvement, and SHOULD NOT be ignored. IF YOU dont like the competition get out of the "bizness" since you surely aren't ready for it.
AND Why the hell are you posting about your dislikes about CC in a CC thread? YOU CCS users just like to ruin any shred of hope for any way of making YES see that if they alienate those very customers that helped them make a CCS, they are only turning their customers away to freeware, or better software. I've used Codejay as posted above, and it has much more room for improvement, and probably in time, will be stiff competition to YES.
"I'm not sure which CCS you're using. I've been using CCS for a couple of weeks on a very large project and it hasn't crashed once. I did have to END NOW Dreamweaver once because it had gotten the FTP upload brainfarts. So in my experience Dreamweaver crashes 100% more than CCS."
Used it up until the official release. Beta's too. All buggy, all crashing. That's when I decided, to hell with it, seeing that it wasn' worth the $200+ for it and got the BETTER CC program. And the way YES software presents it on their website, they seem that they ARE STILL supporting this software. So give us support/upgrades etc.
"I didn't use CC enough to really know for sure, but I'm going to say that CC takes about twice as long to do the same thing as CCS, so I don't think you save as much. "
Completed two projects in 1 week in CC.
Took me 1 week to do one in CCS. Why? Cause i had to edit the damn HTML that was generated by CCS. That's how bad it is.
Can you import templates made OUTSIDE of CCS into CCS? I have'nt seen it done, and using their EDITOR is troublesome. Just give me a basic layout and let me do my own editing.
I do make my layouts prior to a project. And when the project is done, I simply plug the forms into my templates with some cut and paste, and voila, all done.
"And over a period of several projects you'd be losing time. My business revolves around acquiring and keeping new customers. I'm not in an IT shop where I only have 1 customer and I can "nurse" a project (and I'm not saying that's what you do - just that I've seen it done). In my business time recovered is time to acquire new customers. Code Charge Studio may literally allow me to double my sales this year - even if it does crash a couple of times (which so far it hasn't)."
I've done 13 projects since I've bought Code Charge, and all 10 I give a time of when I can be done with it, if the customer/client/etc doens't like that time, they can find someone else. I haven't lost one yet. I've only had CC for 4 months. 3 projects a month? Includign a custom layout? And all of this on personal time.
I have absolutely no problem with you using whatever tool you want to use but if Code Charge does what you want it to do - then you got what you wanted out of it. I really don't understand all the negative post about Studio, unless it is people experiencing beta frustration. My experience has been very positive and Code Charge took a couple of projects from development to completion right away. I regenerated a Dreamweaver app that took 1 month in 3 hours with new functionality. I can't tell you how numb my mind was generating forms in Dreamweaver when much of it was extremely repetitive tasks that could have been automated.
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rclayh
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| Posted: 05/09/2003, 11:43 AM |
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"Let see, Dreamweaver since DW 2 (now i have ultdra dev 4 and DWMX), Adobe PageMill, Frontpage (the last I would on the face of this earth - but I DO know how to use it), for WYSIWYG editors; I also use HTML EDit Pro, CofeeCup, NoteTab Pro, NotePad, and TopStyle for CSS files. Not enough? Since all these better programs exist, why does CCS need an HTML editor?"
Notepad is better?
"What CC SHOULD do is have a part of the program where it asks you where/what program you use as an HTML editor and open that program. How Word will look for your photo-editing/image editing software (ie Photoshop) and upate the Word Document as you "edit" your image/photo."
Under Tools->Options->General "Use external web editor." Haven't used it though.
"CCS is made "almost" useles because of inclusion of their substandard WysiWyg Editor."
Don't get this. Doesn't jive with my experience - your mileage may vary.
"As for relational scheme, Im not talking about Clients. IM talking about hte person who has to code for those clients. CCS makes it harder to do relationals correctly."
Don't have any CC experience in this. Do most of my relations as view in SQL, so it may be a different thing altogether.
"Oh, I'll keep on using it and I WILL keep on complaining about since CC is far better than CCS and other programs out there, and has room for improvement, and SHOULD NOT be ignored. IF YOU dont like the competition get out of the "bizness" since you surely aren't ready for it."
I'm not sure how you assessed that I'm not ready for it. I've been doing it for 10 years now. What I am ready for, is it to be easier than it is.
"AND Why the hell are you posting about your dislikes about CC in a CC thread? YOU CCS users just like to ruin any shred of hope for any way of making YES see that if they alienate those very customers that helped them make a CCS, they are only turning their customers away to freeware, or better software. I've used Codejay as posted above, and it has much more room for improvement, and probably in time, will be stiff competition to YES."
I don't want to get in to a useless flame war, but if you can post what you think, I should be able to post what I think, right? I'm not trying do anything like what you describe - I was just saying I think CCS IS an upgrade to CC.
"Used it up until the official release. Beta's too. All buggy, all crashing. That's when I decided, to hell with it, seeing that it wasn' worth the $200+ for it and got the BETTER CC program. And the way YES software presents it on their website, they seem that they ARE STILL supporting this software. So give us support/upgrades etc."
I'm using the latest patch and it seems really stable to me. Minor things here and there but nothing that keeps it from working.
"Completed two projects in 1 week in CC.
Took me 1 week to do one in CCS. Why? Cause i had to edit the damn HTML that was generated by CCS. That's how bad it is.
Can you import templates made OUTSIDE of CCS into CCS? I have'nt seen it done, and using their EDITOR is troublesome. Just give me a basic layout and let me do my own editing.
I do make my layouts prior to a project. And when the project is done, I simply plug the forms into my templates with some cut and paste, and voila, all done."
Well, I wouldn't even use CCS for developing the look and feel of my web. I don't even use Dreamweaver. I dummy up my web sites in Fireworks MX. Then I cut down the graphics into the appropriate parts. I make a header and footer in DWMX then use CCS to do the middle for the data pages only. I have been copying and pasting a Dreamweaver page into the header as an include page in CCS and haven't had any problems and it's a page loaded with Dreamweaver generated Javascript. Drop down menus, rollovers and pop-up windows. So I don't see why other HTML generated in DW wouldn't work.
The thing that CCS saves me time on is searches, inserts, updates and deletes and restricting user access based on role. That can be sticky wicket and CC may do all that too - I don't have a clue. I just know that CCS is super fast at generating pages.
"I've done 13 projects since I've bought Code Charge, and all 10 I give a time of when I can be done with it, if the customer/client/etc doens't like that time, they can find someone else. I haven't lost one yet. I've only had CC for 4 months. 3 projects a month? Includign a custom layout? And all of this on personal time."
That's great. My current target is a web app a day. Again, I have no idea how long it really takes with CC because I've never fully used it. I just took to CCS pretty quickly.
This isn't personal to me. I just think that CCS is a better product than you would get the impression of from cruising these posts. CC is probably a great product and I hope Yes continues to support it for you but Studio fits the way I work better (I'm very, very lazy).
'Nuff said - have a great one.
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angelo
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| Posted: 05/09/2003, 4:08 PM |
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Earth to CCS users, this isn't a rival product here. You have CCS be happy with it, we're asking for support on what WE bought, the only reason CCS exists is we paid YES software for what we believed would be a supported product that enabled them to produce CCS.
We're talking about CC users. This threads turned into a "Win 98 users arguing with win XP pro users".
CC IS different from a work point of view, it suits a different work flow.
CCS has everything including the dogs b*llocks. The request coming from many CC users is.
We don not need the HTML editor/ we don't need all the fancy bloat plugins and extra code CCS creates, we have other tools that CC standard compliments.
Yes software are likely just to continue with CCS which will actually leave a gap in the market for a CC standard tool it's a question of who decides to clone the CC style functionality first to be honest with you.
Don't get me wrong here, I'll end up using CCS consistently too. I paid for the software after all, I own both, not trials but both paid for. This isn't coming from a "CC" user it's coming from a "CC & CCS" user. My software kit consists of dreamweaver/flash/fireworks/various code text editors and this bizzare program call codecharge. It's quite an achievement for Yes software to create a tool that is considered by many of us as vital as dreamweaver and it's ilk in our development kit!
Everytime CC support is mentioned we get a bunch of CCS users who have to jump up and down telling us to use CCS without even considering WHY we prefer and use CC.
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RipCurl
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| Posted: 05/09/2003, 6:38 PM |
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Dont know; but its like WYSIWYG users who harp on those who still code in Notepad or SimpleText
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RonB
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| Posted: 05/10/2003, 6:50 AM |
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I must say I'm a bit confused over the problems people have with lack of support to CC. When I bought CC it was with the understanding that it was a work in progress that would lead to CCS. Now it has. I don't even consider that I have 2 pieces of software. I have one CCS wich is the end of a long development proces that started with CC. To me it sounds like asking MS to keep supporting windows 3.1 when we are at windows XP. It's normal practice to keep supporting an older version for a limited time and then ask people to upgrade to the new version. CCS is CC!! It's just that CCS is windows XP where CC is windows 3.1
As to the html editor in CCS. You can use it just like the one in CC. Just use it to get your grids, records in and use Dreamweaver for the rest. That's what I do anyway. That's why you can define an external editor in CCS.
CC was/is an excelent tool but it has grown up, matured and became CCS.
One thing to keep in mind is that with updating CCS is'ts better to delete the previous version of CCS first and then install the new version. In my experience much of the described problems will not occur if you delete the previous version first.
Ron
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JackFruit3D
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| Posted: 05/14/2003, 8:03 PM |
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I've used CodeCharge quite happily...
I've also looked at CCS...
And i now know my code skills are CRAP.
I can work with CC use ASP... no templates easy as pie, really efficently and make some nice projects.
Looking in CCS at ASP 3.0 with templates....
yeah well... i'm lost.
Long story short... i think it's a matter of personal opinion... some ppl like Dreamweaver... some ppl like Frontpage... i like HotDog...(yummmm  )
I don't think i'll be able to move on to CCS without leaping into some more understanding of ASP.
I'd like to see CCS do an ASP 2.0 without templates before i move on anytime soon... but....
Personal Opinion!
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