Kerry Neighbour
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| Posted: 05/31/2004, 11:55 PM |
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I am trying CCS with MySQL and PHP. Looks fairly good. But I seem to be
hitting a few serious walls, and I hope it is just a lack on understanding
on my part.
1. You cannot change a project theme after it has been created with the
Application Wizard.
Well, you can - as long as you do not change the theme of a page, or add a
new page after running the initial Application Wizard.
This seems to be a major problem - I can see this causing me a GREAT amount
of work. It means that I will have to change the theme of each page
individually. It rather defaults the purpose of CCS in the first place. In
practice it seems that once you have chosen a theme for aproject - you are
bascially stuck with it. My current test project now has 6 forms, all with
different themes that I have no way of changing.
2. SELECT boxes do not allow an ORDER BY clause for the dropdown list. This
is totally unacceptable, so what you have to do is create an SQL statement
for every SELECT. At least CCS lets you do this, which is good, but it means
a lot more work.
3. CCS does not setup the Edit form the same as the List form. For example,
if you setup one field in the List view as a SELECT (with SQL query, etc),
you have to then do exactly the same thing in the Edit view. With my
proposed application, this is an enormeous amount of work, and it seems
rather silly to me. Again, it seems to rather defeat the purpose of CCS in
the first place.
Is there some way around this problem (ie, is it just my lack of knowledge?)
4. Everytime you run the Application Wizard, you have to setup the Database
connection. It does not remember anything. This has been a lot of work as
there is no way to quickly change the menu layout otherwise.
While CCS does seem excellent - it seems to cause as much work as it saves.
It has me a bit worried that if silly "little" things like these have
seemingly be poorly implemented - what else do I need to check before I buy
it?
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BlinkyBill
Posts: 86
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| Posted: 06/01/2004, 3:20 AM |
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Point 1. Yes, I could never really understand the purpose of the project theme. The way address this at work is create a template project with the themes all preset and just copy it into a new project directory. Not the answer your looking for but works for us.
Point 2. Dropdown boxes no order by ? Of course you can order by, select the datsource then either type the column to order by or click the builder to select the columns to order by.
Point 3. I really don't understand what your trying to achieve. Maybe a more detailed description
Point 4. The application wizard to me is a one time wizard that you run to get you bare bones app up and running from there you can modify the forms and tables.
Just some feeback from a user thats been using CCS since v1.0 and before. CCS is hands down the most PRODUCTIVE developer tool I have used. Once you get past the learning curve and start thinking of the CCS way of solving the problem it tool comes into its own. At work we have a team of 5 developers from juniors to senior staff all using CCS to deliver business critical apps that actually work and save our business money. BTW our organisation has over 30,000 staff, and some of our CCS built apps are deployed out to over 5000 users.
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peterr
Posts: 5971
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| Posted: 06/02/2004, 12:02 AM |
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Kerry,
Re: 1
You can select the "Change Theme" option from the Project menu.
Re: 2
You can specify the order by in the Listbox data source.
Re: 3
Edit/List, Record/Grid forms can all contain different fields and field types of course. They are actually not related and one form doesn't know about the other.
Re: 4
The Application Builder utilizes the connections that were already setup and saved in your project. Only when creating new project you would need to create a new connection. Shouldn't be a problem unless you create a lot of projects 
I believe that all the things you specified are available. CCS is fairly flexible and our Website and examples hopefully prove it.
If you need technical help with any possible issues you encounter please contact our support at http://support.codecharge.com.
_________________
Peter R.
YesSoftware Forums Moderator
For product support please visit http://support.yessoftware.com |
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Kerry Neighbour
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| Posted: 06/02/2004, 10:38 PM |
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> Re: 1
> You can select the "Change Theme" option from the Project menu.
This ONLY works if you do not touch anything, or add another form. I added a
couple of tables (forms) with a different theme - and they do not seem to be
updated when you update the Project (ie the menu option you mention above).
So my current test project has about 10 tables (each with two forms), but
with about 4 different themes. I can see no way of changing my "aberrant"
forms back to the Project standard, then having them update along with all
the rest. In fact, there does not seem to be any way to change the theme of
a form - only when you first create it.
I can see this being a BIG problem if you get part way through a project,
and then the boss/client dicates a change of theme. It seems a LOT of work
to do - and from my initial glance, it does not seem a practial option at
all.
>
> Re: 2
> You can specify the order by in the Listbox data source.
This is what BlinkyBill said - but stuff me if I can see where you can do
it. You can of course specify an SQL statement with an ORDER BY clause, and
that is what I have been doing. But this is a lot of work - I have to do it
for both forms (ie the Edit and the List forms, and then for every single
SELECT control on the form).
The Datasource drop down simply lists the tables available - there is no
ORDER property that I can see.
And to be frank, I can see NO situation where you would simply use a table
without specifying some display order. No-one would want to display a
listbox in native order.
>
> Re: 3
> Edit/List, Record/Grid forms can all contain different fields and field
types
> of course. They are actually not related and one form doesn't know about
the
> other.
>
Exactly. So in practice I have to edit every non-text field in the table
twice. This is a lot of double-up work that annoyed me even when I was only
doing a couple of forms/tables. After doing 30 or 40, I would be really
pissed of.f.
Still - it does give some degree of flexibility, I suppose, althogh I cannot
think of any situation where the field would be different in the Edit/List
and Record/Grid forms. You might chose not to display a field, of course.
For example - I use MySQL, and all boolean fields are 1,0. You do in fact
allow this to be set, which is great. But for every single boolean field in
all of my tables, I have to go and change the Wizard generated text field to
a checkbox field, and set the 1,0 values. And since I have to do it twice
for each table (ie the Edit/List and Record/Grid forms), this is a lot of
work.
And of course it is the same for SELECT fields...but the Wizard cannot be
expected to know about those. But it might be expected to know about boolean
fields, perhaps, as long as you told the system what a boolean field was (in
my case TINYINT).
Is this the only way to do it?
> Re: 4
> The Application Builder utilizes the connections that were already setup
in
> your project. Only when creating new project you would need to create a
new
> connection. Shouldn't be a problem unless you create a lot of projects
Well, you can only run the Application Builder once - so it is always with a
new project - so it never knows anything. It would be good to run it again
as I was trying for some way to change the menu structure. But you cannot.
You have to delete the project and do it all again.
Since I am in test mode, I was createing small projects all over the place,
and each time I had to go through the connection rigmarole each time. Seemed
rather poorly thought out, I thought. Another user had the right idea, I
think - the Applciation wizard is really a 'once of' thing that really is of
little use in a real working situation. Good to get a start, and for people
doing tests like myself, but not once you get into a project.
And except for the theme issue mentioned above, this is quite ok.
>
> I believe that all the things you specified are available. CCS is fairly
> flexible and our Website and examples hopefully prove it.
Don't get me wrong, CCS looks pretty good. I am sure that my lack of
understanding is the main issue.
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Ignorant Hammer
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| Posted: 06/03/2004, 6:09 AM |
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> Don't get me wrong, CCS looks pretty good. I am sure that my lack of
> understanding is the main issue.
Yep, you said it.
People always blame the hammer cause they are poorly trained carpenter.
Practice and study the samples, then come back here with questions. I'm sure Peter and members of this board will be glad to help with specific problems of yours. So, buy the product... your company can afford it. Until then, quit sounding like a p*&&ed-off customer.
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peterr
Posts: 5971
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| Posted: 06/03/2004, 10:02 AM |
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Well, let me try to answer some of these questions as they are getting more clear.
Re: 1
The "Change Theme" option changes only the theme you select to another theme you select. Having 4 different themes is no different from having 4 different words in the document that you want to change all to 1 word. I actually had to recently change several words in MS Word into one word, so I run the Search and Replace several times to rename all those words into the same one. The same works with the Themes, but if you know a better solution to change multiple themes into one then we'd be glad to learn something.
There is also a possibility that we misunderstood each other but possibly some extra time spent with CCS and Themes would help you understand them better. I can agree that the Themes themselves can be confusing but often there are reasons that we had to implement something one way or another.
Re: 2
The Data Source dialog is shown at the top of http://docs.codecharge.com/studio/html/UserGuide/Forms/FormDataSource.html and as you can see it contains the "Order By" feature, where you can either type or select your Order By fields. The Data Source dialog for the ListBox looks the same.
Re: 3
You're right here, although all Wizards that I know of are just that - assistants to help you do some things faster. They are not meant to create complete projects in every way that you can imagine. All they do is aid. The IDE is the one that you'd use to create applications, even without the Wizards. Making certain changes to 30-40 pages can take a day or two, but this is what (visual) development is all about - making concious decisions and desiging your application, while relaying on Wizards to speed up what can be sped up.
In fact, if you see a need another Wizard then you can always submit product suggestions to us, or modify the existing Wizard (it is open source JavaScript + HTML). While we are also working on various improvements and new features.
Re: 4
Your statements seem in conflict with each other "Since I am in test mode, I was createing small projects all over the place, and each time I had to go through the connection rigmarole each time" and "the Applciation wizard is really a 'once of' thing that really is of little use in a real working situation"
I recommend that you make the decision if you want to use the Application Builder for testing and small projects, or for real world situation.
In real world situation you wouldn't be creating a bunch of small test projects but work on one project. And if so then one-time setup of your database connections should be quite sufficient. The Application Builder and all other Builders can be used in existing projects.
I think that you may feel somewhat misled or confused but this doesn't justify misleading others. I recommend again that if you need help you contact our support at http://support.codecharge.com.
Keep in mind that any software product may require some experience and getting familair with.
Thank you.
_________________
Peter R.
YesSoftware Forums Moderator
For product support please visit http://support.yessoftware.com |
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Kerry Neighbour
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| Posted: 06/07/2004, 11:58 PM |
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> Practice and study the samples, then come back here with questions. I'm
sure
> Peter and members of this board will be glad to help with specific
problems of
> yours. So, buy the product... your company can afford it. Until then,
quit
> sounding like a p*&&ed-off customer.
Well, if this is the standard of the help/communication in this forum, then
perhaps I should look to another product to assist me. I have spent a lot of
time on the samples, and have generated a number of my own small projects.
To imply otherwise is a bit puzzling.
You say "your company can afford it". How on earth do you know that? I am
amazed as such a silly statement. With the exchange rate the way it is, we
are looking at around $1,000 (Aust) for this product. No small company,
which we are, can afford to simply throw away this much money on any
product.
And if I sounded like a **** customer, then that is purely in your own eyes.
I am certianly not annoyed, pissed of, or even mildly peeved. Far from it. I
have spent a fair bit of time looking at this product, and have even gone to
the time and trouble to pose a few small concerns in this forum.
And this is for several reasons - I could not understand some of the design
choices CCS uses. Despite a few answers in this forum, I still do not
understand. But that is ok. I still do not fathom some of the silly choices
made by the Delphi design group!
And I also like to guage the level of support for any product we buy - even
if it is only a combo box. This is often more important in the long run that
any perceived problems in the short term. And I have to say that your
non-helpful remarks by themselves tell me not to bother any more.
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darren166
Posts: 24
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| Posted: 06/08/2004, 1:45 AM |
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I do a LOT of internet consulting and design very large apps that interact with databases and Codecharge Studio has been singularly the most helpful product I have ever used.
The support is excellent, this forum is just a first level public forum and even this is visited every day by a very knowledgeable, helpful and patient CCS employee in the form of Peterr. Once you have purchased CCS you can then access the second level support which is almost direct access to the engineers themselves. Over the years I have raised many issues some of which have been highly complex and all have been answered to my satisfaction within several days.
You will found very loyal customers here (myself included) due to the fact that CCS has such a great support base.
Stick with it and you will find it quickly becomes one of your most often used tools. If support is a concern then I assure you CCS is one of the best.
Darren.
_________________
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a. w. d. - c o n s u l t i n g
Midnight Oil Consumers. |
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BlinkyBill
Posts: 86
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| Posted: 06/08/2004, 3:53 AM |
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Quote Kerry Neighbour:
Well, if this is the standard of the help/communication in this forum, then
perhaps I should look to another product to assist me. I have spent a lot of
time on the samples, and have generated a number of my own small projects.
To imply otherwise is a bit puzzling.
Maybe the response you getting is because of the questions you are asking, you asked about order by, it was answered on two separe occasion yet you failed to work it out. Let me spell it out to you, slooowly. The Datasource property for a grid a drop down box, Next the drop down there three (3) . . . little dots if you click this button you will go to the Data Source page. On this page there is Order By text box, as Peter has said you can either type in the Order By or select it from a list, by you guess it ... click the button with the ... dots.
Quote Kerry Neighbour:
You say "your company can afford it". How on earth do you know that? I am
amazed as such a silly statement. With the exchange rate the way it is, we
are looking at around $1,000 (Aust) for this product. No small company,
which we are, can afford to simply throw away this much money on any
product.
Rubbish, as a fellow Aussie, I can say that CCS is the SINGLE MOST useful dev tool I have used. You will pay for it on your first project 3 times over. Average consultant rates in Sydney AU are between $100-$180 /hr Average buld time my small job are 20-30 hours.
We have 6 copies here, will full maintence, why It's worth the money, even in Aussie dollars
Quote Kerry Neighbour:
And I also like to guage the level of support for any product we buy - even
if it is only a combo box. This is often more important in the long run that
any perceived problems in the short term. And I have to say that your
non-helpful remarks by themselves tell me not to bother any more.
This is a public forum, CCS provide support here. The paid support is fanatastic. In AU I get answers same day from paid support.
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peterr
Posts: 5971
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| Posted: 06/08/2004, 1:08 PM |
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Kerry,
These are not support forums.
YesSoftware cannot be responsible for your disagreements with others and it is unfair to judge the product support by your conversation with others.
You can find many rude and possibly insulting messages about every product, just search for offending words at http://www.google.com/grphp?hl=en&tab=wg&q=
But user disagreements of course cannot be related to a product, otherwise you could not use Windows, Linux, Mac, or even a Web browser.
I've been trying to direct you multiple times to our support and I hope that you will consider communicating directly with the company.
Because this is not a support forum I am actually not supposed to offer support via these forums and I help others voluntarily. It's possible that the company will offer official support here, but such decision wasn't made or announced. The forum footer specifically states "These are Community Forums for users to exchange information".
Thank you for your understanding.
_________________
Peter R.
YesSoftware Forums Moderator
For product support please visit http://support.yessoftware.com |
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Kerry Neighbour
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| Posted: 06/08/2004, 4:19 PM |
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>
> These are not support forums.
> YesSoftware cannot be responsible for your disagreements with others and
it is
> unfair to judge the product support by your conversation with others.
Well, that is true, and I accept that.
> I've been trying to direct you multiple times to our support and I hope
that
> you will consider communicating with directly the company.
True.
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Kerry Neighbour
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| Posted: 06/08/2004, 4:38 PM |
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>
> Maybe the response you getting is because of the questions you are asking,
you
> asked about order by, it was answered on two separe occasion yet you
failed to
> work it out. Let me spell it out to you, slooowly. The Datasource property
for
> a grid a drop down box, Next the drop down there three (3) . . . little
dots if
> you click this button you will go to the Data Source page. On this page
there
> is Order By text box, as Peter has said you can either type in the
Order
> By or select it from a list, by you guess it ... click the button with the
....
> dots.
Actually, this is one of the "design decisions" I am somewhat puzzled by. I
only found this Sort Order option when I received a private email with a
picture in it of the Sort Order line. It is in a totally different form! I
was of course looking for it where I thought it should be - next to all the
other options for the datasource, column, etc. An unusual design choice, to
say the least.
And despite your condescending tone, I should not have to go to so much
effort to find such a simple thing. If I had so much trouble, then you can
be sure that other people have as well. I am a VERY experienced programmer,
so while I might have had a bad day, I do know what I am doing.
> Rubbish, as a fellow Aussie, I can say that CCS is the SINGLE MOST useful
dev
> tool I have used. You will pay for it on your first project 3 times over.
> Average consultant rates in Sydney AU are between $100-$180 /hr Average
buld
> time my small job are 20-30 hours.
For you, that might be just great. You have no idea what our company does,
what we charge or what I need CCS for. I am a Delphi programmer - we do not
do much PHP stuff. I am looking at doing one small project, and was
considering PHP. I am still not decided, and might go with ExpressWeb
Framework or Intraweb. So CCS will probably only be used for one single
project, if I go in that direction. In that context it is more the cost of
learning the product than the actual purchase price.
> This is a public forum, CCS provide support here. The paid support is
> fanatastic. In AU I get answers same day from paid support.
I am glad to hear that. I suspected as much to be true from the quality of
most of the answers here.
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