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 Ability for codecharge created site to handle large volume of traffic?

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jpo245

Posts: 5
Posted: 05/05/2005, 4:02 AM

Hi, I'm pretty new to web development, and have a question.

For sites with large databases, i understand much of the processing time required to generate a page, comes from the SQL query itself, which could take a while, especially if plouging through millions of records with multiple joins.

I'm curious about the actually processing power needed by php to generate the data display page. I am debating whether i should entirely hand code a site to keep it efficient, of should i save time to build the base of it at least from CCS, and then modify.

Would I suffer a great performance decrease if I use CCS? I understand that the SQL query is often the bottle neck, but apart from SQL query times, would CCS generated code significantly affect page display times especially if the site is handling a huge load (1000 hits in a few seconds).

Thanks!
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peterr


Posts: 5971
Posted: 05/05/2005, 11:56 AM

There is no performance difference whether you use CCS or program manually, if you use the same approach. Your application could just as well work exactly the same as CCS application does.

But in practice the answer to your questions also mainly depends on the technology choice.
For example when using .NET you probably won't see a noticeable difference in performance whether you use CCS or not.

When using ASP or PHP, I am assuming that you would manually create your application without the template-based approach that CCS uses, in which case your application could be twice as fast, if it is properly written. (I also saw manually created applications that were slower than CCS)
This is not related to CCS itself, but mostly depends on creating template-driven applications where the design is separated from the code. I'm not sure if you could implement such template-based methodology that could work faster than what CCS does.
Thus in practice when using ASP or PHP this may translate to executing about 1 - 4 million pages per 10-hour day (depending on the hardware) with well-written manual code that doesn't use HTML templates, vs. 0.5 - 3 million pages per day for applications created by CCS or manually written code that uses templates for separating the code from the design.
If you expect to display more than half a million pages per day then you may want to get good hardware with more memory.

Moving onto Java, the world's largest portal systems (Oracle, BEA, IBM, Sun) that were manually written and cost $hundreds of thousands and drive the largest Websites usually use template-based approach like CCS but they often assemble pages from a lot of various sets of data and template parts, store some parts of templates in the database, perform a lot of data logging, and in the end can be much slower than Java applications created with CCS. They also require much more server power and memory (1 GB is often minimum). Assuming that you'd be able to write such wonderful and full-featured enterprise applications, they would most certainly be much slower than CCS apps :-)
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jpo
Posted: 05/05/2005, 2:33 PM

Thank you peterr for your detailed reply.
Being new to web development, i have received mixed comments from some of my programmer friends. There was a hard core die hard programmer who swore never to do code generation, and there were other more practical minded ones who advised to do it, especially if time was a constraint.

In my case, i think CCS suits my needs perfectly. IF and WHEN my website starts to get a million hits a day, i will consider another solution.

Thanks! and can't wait for ccs3.0!! The visual query designer is AMAZING...

Quote peterr:
There is no performance difference whether you use CCS or program manually, if you use the same approach. Your application could just as well work exactly the same as CCS application does.

But in practice the answer to your questions also mainly depends on the technology choice.
For example when using .NET you probably won't see a noticeable difference in performance whether you use CCS or not.

When using ASP or PHP, I am assuming that you would manually create your application without the template-based approach that CCS uses, in which case your application could be twice as fast, if it is properly written. (I also saw manually created applications that were slower than CCS)
This is not related to CCS itself, but mostly depends on creating template-driven applications where the design is separated from the code. I'm not sure if you could implement such template-based methodology that could work faster than what CCS does.
Thus in practice when using ASP or PHP this may translate to executing about 1 - 4 million pages per 10-hour day (depending on the hardware) with well-written manual code that doesn't use HTML templates, vs. 0.5 - 3 million pages per day for applications created by CCS or manually written code that uses templates for separating the code from the design.
If you expect to display more than half a million pages per day then you may want to get good hardware with more memory.

Moving onto Java, the world's largest portal systems (Oracle, BEA, IBM, Sun) that were manually written and cost $hundreds of thousands and drive the largest Websites usually use template-based approach like CCS but they often assemble pages from a lot of various sets of data and template parts, store some parts of templates in the database, perform a lot of data logging, and in the end can be much slower than Java applications created with CCS. They also require much more server power and memory (1 GB is often minimum). Assuming that you'd be able to write such wonderful and full-featured enterprise applications, they would most certainly be much slower than CCS apps :-)
marcwolf


Posts: 361
Posted: 05/05/2005, 7:50 PM

Hi Peterr

I'm following this thread with interest as I had often wondered about how fast CCS really is (no complaints to date :-) ) But its something I do have at the back of my mind re expansion and question from clients.

At the moment we are a purely ASP house with VB components if required. We are planning to move to ASP/VB.NET as soon as we are confident re the technologies.

I take it your comment regarding the difference in speed with ASP and ASP.NET is that ASP.NET is akin to a templating system where the presentation login is seperated from the Code

Also that ASP.NET compiles the code into a DLL and thus one can run as machine language speed rather than as an interpreter like pure ASP.


looking forward to your views

Dave
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peterr


Posts: 5971
Posted: 05/06/2005, 12:08 AM

Hi Dave,

The templating methodolgy that CCS uses for ASP is comparable to the templating built into .NET. Thus the approach is similar there, although I'd even say that our ASP templates are cleaner than .NET because they contain pure HTML that all Web designers are familiar with. While .NET templates contain .NET-specific tags and even some programming logic, so they may not be as designer-friendly. Here I even found a HTML templating engine for .NET that supposedly "was designed to be as simplistic as possible for non-code oriented people (graphic artists, html people, other non-coders).": http://www.joel.net/code/dotnet_templates.aspx
This makes me wonder why .NET would need a templating engine since .NET is based on templates. This also confirms that CCS approach may be better.

In any case, when you create .NET Web applications with CCS then the CCS HTML template is converted to .NET template (.aspx) during code generation, thus on your server you will end up with a standard .NET application that uses standard .NET templates and should run as fast as any other .NET Web applications. And since .NET apps are compiled by the .NET framework, any possible performance differences are minimized and shouldn't be noticable.
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Pedro Ruiz
Posted: 05/06/2005, 11:01 AM

Quote jpo245:
Hi, I'm pretty new to web development, and have a question.

For sites with large databases, i understand much of the processing time required to generate a page, comes from the SQL query itself, which could take a while, especially if plouging through millions of records with multiple joins.

I'm curious about the actually processing power needed by php to generate the data display page. I am debating whether i should entirely hand code a site to keep it efficient, of should i save time to build the base of it at least from CCS, and then modify.

Would I suffer a great performance decrease if I use CCS? I understand that the SQL query is often the bottle neck, but apart from SQL query times, would CCS generated code significantly affect page display times especially if the site is handling a huge load (1000 hits in a few seconds).

Thanks!

If you are using PHP as the scripting language, you might want to check out Zend optimizer. http://www.zend.com
This is a free component designed to parse the php code quicker.

Regarding SQL queries:
Almost all database software (MySQL, Oracle, SQL Server) has some type of analyze utility that will give you stats on your SQL execution time.

Thats my two cents.

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