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 Ruby on Rails support

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mikehoskins

Posts: 17
Posted: 03/27/2006, 11:29 AM

Not only will I chime in on AJAX and SQLite support, but Ruby is more than worth supporting. Missing these three makes CCS feature incomplete.

I don't even need to mention the rise in popularity of Ruby on Rails, to make the point.

However, having CCS as an alternative to scaffold is a *HUGE* win.
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mikehoskins

Posts: 17
Posted: 05/08/2006, 3:07 PM

Does anybody know if RoR is on CCS's RADAR?
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WKempees
Posted: 05/08/2006, 3:19 PM

it wouldn't be in my opinion.
There is quite a few major flavours being catered for (Java ASp Net Php)
already, that takes major resources.
Ruby is good, and growing but not mature yet, CCS would only add a GUI
development environment.
But hey, I'm only a customer.'
From RoR community one learns that a lot of PhP addicts are transferring.
Anybody know the PhP : RoR Hosting companies??
I love the way the syntax goes but I love the versatility of my 'jokingly'
so called "scripting language" (PhP).
Did some real nifty stuff with it. Anyone tried modifying a car's ECU on
line with Ruby or RoR yet.





"mikehoskins" <mikehoskins@forum.codecharge> schreef in bericht
news:22445fc12947cc7@news.codecharge.com...
> Does anybody know if RoR is on CCS's RADAR?
> ---------------------------------------
> Sent from YesSoftware forum
> http://forums.codecharge.com/
>

mikehoskins

Posts: 17
Posted: 05/25/2006, 12:01 PM

Warning: long skreed follows:

Not to bash or start a flame war, but if asked, what proof would you would you provide to suggest that Ruby isn't mature?

If I wanted to, I could anecdotally make the same claims against Perl and PHP, and especially .net. (Naturally, after administrating and researching .net, I'd retract those statements, despite its young age).

Ruby was first released February 23, 1993. This is older than Perl 5.000; all of .net; PHP/FI (which was before PHP 2.0); VBScript; or Java (Oak is older than Ruby, however)! It's also older than supporting technologies, like JavaScript.... I don't know about the release date of CFML, on the other hand.

So, Ruby would be the second or third most mature language on the list.

RoR, on the other hand, is a bundle and a framework that is much more recent. It is what I'd call "extremely well proven" but not quite mature. It was first released to the public as open source in 2004-07, with a 1.0 release in 2005-12.

However, RoR draws on a great deal of older research into the web and web design, so it stands on the shoulders of its ancestors. It's bundle is mostly based on older packages and RoR spent quite awhile closed sourced, being proven on 37Signals and Basecamp, before being opened up.

So how old is RoR, really? It's rather mature for its age....

Also, the fact that it is extremely well proven on very large productional sites, it scales well, it is easy to optimize on a web server, it is well-documented, it is being very actively developed, and it has great momentum (unlike other listed platforms), I'd say that even Rails is something that could graduate into the mature camp, quite quickly.

I defected from the Perl/CGI camp long ago to PHP. Now I'm fleeing PHP, especially since 5.0 isn't doing it for me. For awhile, I've been disgusted with PHP by its lack of standard/built-in (or at least community-approved) database abstraction (like Perl's DBI/DBD).

PHP has speed but few standards. PEAR is absolutely horrible and it can't begin to compare with CPAN or RubyForge. XML is another problem. OOP is another. Packaging is another. ...and on and on it goes.

So, PHP and PHPLib/ADODB have always had their own maturity problems, yet CC and CCS have supported PHP from day one.

After looking at Ruby + Rails, I see a standard well-supported bundle ("Active...." packages, for example). It includes email, database abstraction, sessionization, MVC, web services, modern exception handling, a very clean OOP environment, etc. It nearly forces standards compliance and has a DRY (don't repeat yourself) mentality engineered into everything. Gem is also tightly integrated. I could go on and on, but I'm just a rank beginner at RoR.

Unlike Perl, Ruby enthusiasts don't cry "There's More Than One Way To Do It". No, they cry, "Convention over Configuration". (That's a mark of serious, serious maturity).

PHP has always been accused of having lots and lots of amateur coders sending out snippets to the 'net, as well. Most of the Ruby code snippets I see scream thought and design.

If CC/CCS supported PHP and PHPLib in their newbie/not-so-mature days, why not apply this to the far more mature Ruby and RoR? The same comparisoin could be drawn to .net technologies....

Quote :
According to Wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_on_Rails -

Philosophy

Ruby On Rails' guiding principles include "Don't Repeat Yourself" (DRY) and "Convention Over Configuration."

"Don't Repeat Yourself" means that definitions should only have to be made once. Since Ruby On Rails is a "full-stack" framework, the components are integrated so that bridges between them need not be set up manually. For example, in Active Record, class definitions need not specify the column names; Ruby can already find them from the database itself, so defining them in both the program and the RDBMS would be redundant.

"Convention Over Configuration" means that the programmer only needs to define configuration which is unconventional.


The above sounds far more mature to me than PHP or Perl/CGI, to this day.... Python doesn't seem to suffer as badly in the areas listed in this rant, but it also lacks the momentum and user base of the others, sorry to say.

I can't remember being as excited about learning a programming language (or especially an API) before, and I've dabbled in and/or mastered many dozens over the years. I just wish I had more time.

I also hear the same excitement from other Perl and PHP programmers. What's really interesting about Ruby is the number of died-in-the-wool Java programmers that are defecting and not looking back!

Anectdotally, I see Perl/CGI and CFML dying a slow, painful death. I believe that VBScript and PHP are next, followed by Java. (The only reason I don't already put Java on the dying list is its deep entrenchment. It has become the COBOL of web server development and still is growing fast enought to survive a long while). PHP is still growing, but I see signs of developer apathy everywhere....

If the language list for CCS remains the same but developers start moving to Java, VB.net, and C#.net, then what becomes of CCS? There are many Java equivalents to CCS and then there's Visual Studio by Microsoft, among others for .net. What happens is that people start to look more seriously at other tools. Maybe it won't be you and I, but others will.

Now, if I was a software tools company that already supported a GUI -> XML -> Parser -> multiple language/API code generator, I'd be strongly looking at something like RoR and AJAX as a way to breathe more life into my product.

I still don't see the point in not supporting RoR....
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WKempees
Posted: 05/26/2006, 3:35 AM

Mike
(I'm expressing my personal opinion, Walter)

Your comment highly appreciated.
I'm a reader/follower of RoR, have no experience with Ruby though.
I like what's growing (and growing) at RoR, as (and I stated this earlier) I
'm lazy, so always looking for a fasttrack to development results.

Still:
How would you see CCS support RoR?
I would love for CCS to adept the DRY, MVC and other higher level wrappers.
I would love CCS to become a one step development tool to all the techniques
they envelop.
And I could understand them eventually supporting Ruby but not RoR.
RoR in itself could mature to be a competitor to CCS, in a way it already
is, adding the GUI and tools.

Walter





mikehoskins

Posts: 17
Posted: 05/26/2006, 8:45 AM

Naturally, Rails is just a framework. This framework could be leveraged by CodeCharge, just as J2EE and .net are already being used by CCS, right now.

For example, in the past, the PHP code generator by CC utilized PHPlib, with CC add-ons. IIRC, CCS3, today, makes use of ADODB, under PHP.

All the developers of CCS do is take some suitable API/Framework/Abstraction Layer written by others and stack their own API over the top of it. This is done for each language.

Note: by "all they ... do is", of course, don't take me too literally. I know they do a LOT more work than that. If it was really *that easy* they wouldn't be in business! :-)

Then, they program to their own API. This could easily stack on top of RoR

Thus, their GUI -> XML -> Parser -> Code Generator scheme is, in concept, simpler than it sounds.

Ajax and RoR additions aren't all that hard to target. Mostly, it's a reuse of other people's open source (or not) API's....

Ajax would probably need more of a rewrite, due to the fact that there are business logic and presentation logic, as well as client and server changes.

Ajax would probably require major changes to the IDE.

RoR wouldn't need all that....
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WKempees
Posted: 05/26/2006, 1:54 PM

Mike,

Ok so you got the right picture and through you well formed explanation, I
can only agree.
The rest I would imagine depends on market opportunities as seen by Yes
Software.
You won me over, from the rest of the fora threads on RoR I merely got a
feeling people wanted includable RoR (AJAX style)
which would be very far from feasable or usable.
Also I think cross-posting this to RoR would be a nice move!

Thank you for elaborating.

Walter

mikehoskins

Posts: 17
Posted: 05/26/2006, 6:49 PM

Great! I finally win someone over. :-)

The market for RoR is most likely large, but unknown in size. It does have the momentum, though!

I would definitely like CCS 3.x or 4.x to target RoR the same way it does PHP w/ ADODB or Perl/CGI or .net.

Just plain Ruby, without a CCS stack on top of RoR might be somewhat nice, but a CCS stack on top of RoR would be huge! The code integration and reuse with Ruby and RoR would be excellent because of the clean syntax and implementation. Thus, it would be easy to build upon....
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