Suntower
Posts: 225
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| Posted: 08/19/2006, 4:05 PM |
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If I didn't like CCS so much (...er... what I've plowed through so far) I wouldn't write this.
THIS THING NEEDS ABOUT 50% MORE EXAMPLES!!!
Sure, there are a lot of baby examples, which are very nice. BUT when you get down to the nuts and bolts of what one -really- needs in order to do -real- applications, it feels to -me- like there is -always- some sort of missing piece that I have to slog past by brute force trial and error.
If EVER there was a program that could benefit from more examples, THIS IS IT.
It's taken me almost 3 years to get to where I'm actually -using- this thing to do useful work. The reason being that, every time I start in, I run into roadblocks and then, since there isn't a great wealth of examples and frankly, the response here can be a bit intermittent (or, it's one of those 'you'd have to be here' deals) I'd just give up.
I am not alone. I know personally 2 other guys who feel the same---and that's just in my little circle. We all sense that CCS is the bomb, but we just don't have enough time, given our other responsibilities, to plow through all the trial and error. So we fall back on our existing tools, even though we know that CCS would be a step forward---if we could just figure it out.
Anyway, that's my rant. I hope Yessoftware is listening. OTOH, everyone else may disagree. Or may have a reflex reaction that I'm just a flamer. Whatever.
I would like to see a LOT more examples of techniques involving:
--SQL databases: custom inserts, updates using multiple tables
--Javascript: working with multiple windows
--Passing page data to and from the Javascript (HTML) page into ASP or PHP
--Making apps 'skinnable'
--E-mail examples that WORK with CDO or Persits
--Troubleshooting ASP, JS and PHP
...and so forth and so on
Yes, I know that there are separate forums for ASP or SQL or PHP or JS, but it seems to me that CCS is sort of an aggregator for all these technologies so CCS should have as much info on 'the big picture' of all these areas so that one doesn't have to write a novel in 3 different vendor forums in order to get a problem solved. (After all, those guys usually don't have a -clue- about CCS.)
Sorry to go on. I really like CCS. It just seems to suffer from what a LOT of good programs do---a dearth of documentation. What is there is GREAT. It just needs a lot more. I KNOW docs suck. Nobody used to hate writing 'em more than me. But, at the end of the day, -that- is what has held me back, more than anything, using CCS.
Thanks for listening.
---JC
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---On a campaign for more examples and better docs! |
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mamboBROWN
Posts: 1713
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| Posted: 08/21/2006, 7:09 PM |
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Suntower
Here is my 2cents. I think you said it best when you said
Quote :We all sense that CCS is the bomb, but we just don't have enough time, given our other responsibilities, to plow through all the trial and error. So we fall back on our existing tools, even though we know that CCS would be a step forward---if we could just figure it out.
Many of us (including myself) have learned about this tool through trial and error. In my opinion I think that that is the best way to learn about a Great tool. But for those of us who may need a little more assistance there are training courses that you can take ( http://support.yessoftware.com/training.asp ). Don't knock a product just because you aren't willing to put in the time. The ones who are able to answer your questions (or point you in the right direction) are some of the ones who put in the time and effort to learn this GREAT product.
I have followed this product since 2003. I have owned this product since 2004 and I still don't know everything about it but I know enough to be very dangerous. I have downloaded the manuel and user guides and read it through dozens of times and eventhough I consider myself pretty good at it there is still more to learn, there is still trial and error. My guest is that there will probably be trial and error till the day I die. Hopefully this will be helpful to you and hopefully you will find the time to learn about this GREAT tool.
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Marcus
Posts: 49
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| Posted: 08/22/2006, 12:52 AM |
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Quote mamboBROWN:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CodeCharge Studio in 5 Days.
Details
5 Days of training for CodeCharge.
CodeCharge Studio delivers the speed of code generation integrated with a full featured, powerful IDE. You can quickly generate dynamic, bug-free web sites in ASP, JSP, PHP, Perl, ColdFusion, ASP.NET. And then edit and customize your applications using the Studio's powerful code editors.
The included CodeCharge Studio Add-In for FrontPage is the first product that extends FrontPage functionality into a full-featured, integrated web development environment that makes it fast and easy to create database-enabled web sites.
Course Length
40 Hours of Classroom learning
Price: $2,000.00
1,548.20 EUR
---------------------------------------------------
I cannot afford this! -- just to learn an poorly documented tool.
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Marcus
Posts: 49
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| Posted: 08/22/2006, 12:57 AM |
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Quote mamboBROWN:
But for those of us who may need a little more assistance there are training courses that you can take ( http://support.yessoftware.com/training.asp ). CodeCharge Studio in 5 Days.
CodeCharge Studio delivers the speed of code generation integrated with a full featured, powerful IDE. You can quickly generate dynamic, bug-free web sites in ASP, JSP, PHP, Perl, ColdFusion, ASP.NET. And then edit and customize your applications using the Studio's powerful code editors.
The included CodeCharge Studio Add-In for FrontPage is the first product that extends FrontPage functionality into a full-featured, integrated web development environment that makes it fast and easy to create database-enabled web sites.
Course Length
40 Hours of Classroom learning
Contact us or your local representative for class prices, availability and discounts
Price: $2000.00
1,548.20 EUR
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mamboBROWN
Posts: 1713
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| Posted: 08/23/2006, 5:58 PM |
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Marcus
Then I guess the only options left are trial and error (I actually printed all of the documentation and read it through more then once) , other tutorial sites and help from the CCS forums.
Did you do know that there are other sites that have helpful tutorials as well?? Are you familiar with them?? Here is a link to a forum that may be helpful: http://forums.codecharge.com/posts.php?post_id=56083
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marcwolf
Posts: 361
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| Posted: 08/23/2006, 9:31 PM |
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Hi.
I suppose it comes down to wether you are a newbie who is looking for a PHD (Push Here Dummy) tool to create their website or..
You are a seasoned web developer who is looking for a tool that will simplify the creation of standard tasks.
Myself - I found CCS from the second and one of the first things I did was take apart the comon.asp to see what they did.
Trial and error is a great way to fully understand an application if thrainig is not available.
Just my 2 cents worth
Dave
_________________
' Coding Coding Coding
Keep Those Keyboards Coding.
Raw Code!!!!!!!
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Suntower
Posts: 225
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| Posted: 08/23/2006, 9:43 PM |
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And with all due respect I say, 'Bollocks'. And I hope you'll not take it personally, because this ain't directed at you, sir, per se.
But you're describing an all too common 'either/or' situation. I don't want a 'PHD'. But my time is -extremely- jammed so I -depend- on lots of examples and resources so that I don't have to re-invent the wheel. I'm sure the MS bashers will scream when I say this, but for all the crap they take, The Evil Empire really -lavishes- me with sample code, examples and lots of docs and I gotta admit IT WORKS. I'm hooked on -not- figuring things out myself anymore.
Can I 'roll up my sleeves and look @ the libs'? Sure. Did that in my 20's. Now I'm older, and hopefully a bit smarter. I thought the whole 'OOP' thing was to hide the gory details from 'consumers' like me.
All I ask for is complete documentation. I don't think I should -have- to go digging through sources just to learn how to do a Custom Insert, simply because it ain't demo'd -or- documented in the OLH.
CCS is supposed to -save- time. I'm sure that -eventually- it will. But jeez the learning curve is so steep in the poorly documented parts that it's really testing my patience to hang in there.
That said, and reality being what it is... your suggestion of checking out the pre-generated files eg COMMON.ASP is eminently reasonable (and bloody necessary from what I can see now) and I thank you for that.
Regards,
---JC
Quote marcwolf:
Hi.
I suppose it comes down to wether you are a newbie who is looking for a PHD (Push Here Dummy) tool to create their website or..
You are a seasoned web developer who is looking for a tool that will simplify the creation of standard tasks.
Myself - I found CCS from the second and one of the first things I did was take apart the comon.asp to see what they did.
Trial and error is a great way to fully understand an application if thrainig is not available.
Just my 2 cents worth
Dave
_________________
---On a campaign for more examples and better docs! |
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jpser
Posts: 44
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| Posted: 08/24/2006, 4:19 AM |
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I partially agree to what has been said
But I do think CCS is a really good product that can save time
And I do think its main purpus is for developers only
We do have to understand the code behind, ( and change it sometimes)
The fact is samples are too easy
But this product is getting better and better
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jp serei
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Phil
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| Posted: 08/24/2006, 8:16 AM |
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Can someone please buy the training lessons and share them? I mean who on earth can affort $2,000 for training? All we need is for one member to check out the lessons and write more accessible affordable tutorials based on that and share it with the rest of us. Otherwise codecharge remains a trial and error package. Personally, i know my way around it, but for the average user, there is a place they cannot go beyond. If you look at other training applications like dreamweaver asp integration, etc on places like lynda.com or total training, one can pay $20 a month and actually access the training 24/7! Its less than us$400 for full access for a while year plus lesson files. I personally think this $2,000 training is so overpriced and they should either come up witha stripped down version that is affordable or get someone to buy it and share. Soon eveyone will have access to the tuts. The examples and manuals are not enough.
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Suntower
Posts: 225
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| Posted: 08/24/2006, 10:32 AM |
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It's a great product. The problem I've noticed with forums like this is that eejits like me write these detailed and nuanced posts and most of us with better things to do  tend to only read the inflammatory bits and get the wrong overall impression.
If I didn't think it was a good product, I wouldn't have hung in there!
My criticisms are not of the -product- per se. It's the DOCS.
And -come on- people, we're all developers here (to one degree or another) so let's be honest: 99% of us -hate- writing docs, and let's be even more honest and admit that -most- software has suffered from crap docs. So I don't think I'm singling Yessoftware out for special flagellation. I could pick a dozen companies guilty of far worse documentation sins.
But the world has changed (or I've gotten old?). My tolerance has definitely been reduced and my expectations of docs has definitely gotten a lot higher. Hell, -my- users no longer put up with crap docs from -me- (How annoying of them! ).
From what I can see so far... there's nothing wrong with CCS that about a week of hard work by a pro doc writer couldn't fix.
Sorry if I came across as a grouser. I'll close by saying this is like getting a totally cool Christmas present, but.... 'Where are the instructions?'
Cheers,
---JC
Quote jpser:
I partially agree to what has been said
But I do think CCS is a really good product that can save time
And I do think its main purpus is for developers only
We do have to understand the code behind, ( and change it sometimes)
The fact is samples are too easy
But this product is getting better and better
_________________
---On a campaign for more examples and better docs! |
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KayBee
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| Posted: 09/25/2006, 11:16 AM |
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I am currently evaluating the product and yes, there is a need for more examples. But... I read that many people have been using the tool for many years. How about a user community that shares some examples?
I personally think that the many languages the package deals with also doesn't make it easy to write documentation or provide examples. e.g. you show how to do certain things in PHP and the ASP people feel left alone...
Personally I think that the hints and tips section could be better with also the user community helping out. I understand that the people with all the knowledge are very busy. Maybe an idea is more video's on the website. Another package I'm looking at is and they have many video's. Very good... but their price is 4x CCS!!
Cheers,
KayBee
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Oper
Posts: 1195
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| Posted: 09/25/2006, 12:28 PM |
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its just about how much time you got to learn, i think too 2000us$ is too much but if you dont have time thas your option, if you are in real bussines then hard training is your way.
few persont try to help as much they can but when thing are cheap/free nooone supported we have a good example of a good web magazine but just few supported. we have a section in our forum just for CCS question and we did reply on daliy basic. but we get more PM than post for help, don in this forum help everyone and lot of others, problem is people wnat help asap, thenyou need to pay if that your case.
in My Opinion CCS 3 is a really great product and is gettign better we started with version 1.0
maybe 4year ago? we have few WEB application that go around of 20k us$. and we are in the point that there is nothing we cant do with CCS, everthing we have try or our customer ask for it we doit in less time that our costumer spected. really quick.
Year ago we were doing quick sample for donation but was too much work for the $$ received we ended doing soemtime for free,
Personal Opinion, i will stay with CCS till the end.
www.GlobalDevelop.com
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Suntower
Posts: 225
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| Posted: 09/25/2006, 2:39 PM |
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The problem could be largely solved simply by getting a LOT more involvement in this here forum.
When you post a question, very few people are kind enough to throw a noob a lifeline. I find this puzzling. When I was starting out there were (and still are) a zillion guys who want to help a noob learn 'C' or 'VB'. They consider it a part of 'passing the torch'. Someone helped them so they help others.
A lot of times, I'll post a bug or problem -here- because if I post it to 'support' I'll get a terse reply 24 hours laters asking me to send them the entire CCP which is often quite impractical.
But on more vibrant language forums, I'll post a question and get an answer almost as soon as I hit the 'Submit' button.
In short: I know there are people out there who -can- help but simply don't feel they have the time to do so. And that's sad.
Of course, this is all said from the 'noob' side of the fence so.... ;)
The thing is, though. As I've said before. It's this lack of responsiveness that has turned 'off' a lot of my colleagues---regardless of the quality of CCS (which is -very- good!)
Cheers,
---JC
_________________
---On a campaign for more examples and better docs! |
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FrankR
Posts: 154
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| Posted: 09/26/2006, 8:29 AM |
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I think some of the comments in this thread are very valid.
The only answer can't be rolling the sleeves up and digging into the innards.
I have the ability to do that, but I often don't have the Time to do it.
I have literally been racing the clock trying to get enough done with this tool in a short enough time to convince others - and not get behind on a project. I am 110% convinced that when I get a couple of real world CCS projects under my belt - and get a nice library of helper functions under my belt - that this will be the absolutely fastest path to building new web apps.
But getting to that point is far from easy.
Richer docs, more examples with custom code, and a larger user support community would go a long way towards improving that.
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