jhpccs
Posts: 25
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| Posted: 04/18/2008, 1:15 AM |
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I have own CCS since version 2 and I love it but..
YES, has problems that makes it a hard sell.
I realize that YES is a small company, but they could grow if they would only improve if a few ways.
The bad!
1. Bugs, I started a thread during ver 4 beta asking if version 3 bugs would be fixed berfore the release of 4. No, ver 3 had outstanding bugs when ver 4 was released, Is there really a stable version of CCS? It seems to me every version has more and more bugs.
2. Support, you must purchase support for a unstable product. Report a bug buy support!
3. No way to view current bugs, problems and solutions.
4. Documentation - as already mentioned on the forums. Its hard to tell people it's a great product but.. the learning curve is LONG and good luck with the New Features. (ajax, etc)
5. SDK, MS Visual Basic and VIsual Studio success was partly do to 3rd party companies could add features. CCS SDK is several verisions behind. (Documentation problem?)
6. YES could be more active on the foums, this could help the support problem.
The Good!
1. A Great product.
Summary: CCS could be the next Visual Basic 6 , as far as success if they would only get their act straight.
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JimmyCrackedCorn
Posts: 583
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| Posted: 04/18/2008, 2:04 AM |
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I agree it is a great product AND Yes needs to improve the documentation!
Regarding your point #6, Peterr (of Yes) usually participates in the forums but I noticed he has not logged in in a couple of weeks. Starting to concern me....
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Walter Kempees...you are dearly missed. |
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maxhugen
Posts: 272
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| Posted: 04/19/2008, 6:39 AM |
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I agree. As a 4-week noobie, I was initially very impressed by CCS. But as I started to get down to the nitty gritty, I found that:
1. Support is not good enough. People on the forums are very helpful, but that's not sufficient. Yes needs a wiki, which Yes also actively contributes to. For example, CCS may have AJAX features, but when I checked out their examples closely, I couldn't figure out some of the things they did in them - there's absolutely no explanation. Also, some logical applications of AJAX don't appear to have been addressed.
2. Bugs are a problem. CCS has crashed on me a number of times. I've already found things that don't really work. Yes would progress much faster if they took a Bazaar approach, rather than the Cathedral.
3.Debugging: if you need to do more than create simple apps in the "Yes vision", you have to start coding yourself. And decent debuggers are essential for that. That's a problem for Yes, given the languages they support, I understand, but if they want to become anything resembling a mainstream IDE, they've got to do it. Oherwise, CSS will be confined to the bottom of the rung as far as developers go. FWIW, Firebug (for Firefox) is great!
Don't misunderstand me, I really admire what Yes have created. But without a concerted effort to address some rather pressing issues - often raised in the forums - CCS won't progress to serious app development - and that would be a shame.
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Max
www.gardenloco.com | www.eipdna.com | www.chrisarminson.com |
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peterr
Posts: 5971
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| Posted: 04/19/2008, 6:34 PM |
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That's very cute Max but CCS is already used for VERY serious development by VERY serious companies for VERY serious applications. This is just FYI 
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Peter R.
YesSoftware Forums Moderator
For product support please visit http://support.yessoftware.com |
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peterr
Posts: 5971
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| Posted: 04/19/2008, 6:36 PM |
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jhpccs,
You don't need to pay for support to report a bug.
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Peter R.
YesSoftware Forums Moderator
For product support please visit http://support.yessoftware.com |
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Vasiliy
Posts: 378
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| Posted: 04/20/2008, 6:43 PM |
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Quote :That's very cute Max but CCS is already used for VERY serious development by VERY serious companies for VERY serious applications. This is just FYI
I confirm this.
Big mortgage banking companies, like JP Morgan Chase, Lehman Brothers, Citizens use complex web-app (hundreds of thousands $) written on CCS3.2
Web-app passed all possible tests, standard for big companies.
For our subject: penetration and performance.
Auto-generated CCS code was analyzed and confirmed as solid and stable security-wise and performance-wise.
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Vasiliy |
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JimmyCrackedCorn
Posts: 583
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| Posted: 04/21/2008, 1:52 AM |
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I can confirm we are using CCS for serious development! We are benefitting from significantly reduced time on some of our projects due to CCS and our revenues for these have remained the same (that translates to better profits!!!)
Four comments,
1) The CCS IDE can be a little flakey and a bit slow. Sometimes copy/paste does not work properly. Sometimes components will lose their component definition and have to be inserted/defined again (save often and save backups of pages you spend a lot of time building). Switching from code to design view and back does not keep track of my position on the page.
2) Docs need updating for latest versions. This tool could do a lot more for me if I only knew how to use it!! :)
3) Support seems OK to me. Not stellar but fairly prompt and often helpful. To be fair, most tech support I encounter these days at other companies would rate somewhere between poor to awful! So an "OK" is actually pretty good!
4) The CCS-generated code is much higher quality than anything we can ever produce by hand. We NEVER find any problems in the CCS code once we deploy our apps.
Overall this is an amazing tool so anyone reading this thread who is considering it...I'd say go for it! You won't be sorry and you'll save enough on your first minor project to recover your investment.
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Walter Kempees...you are dearly missed. |
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wkempees
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| Posted: 04/21/2008, 4:27 AM |
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Can confirm, international use too.
Walter
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jhpccs
Posts: 25
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| Posted: 04/21/2008, 11:05 AM |
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I agree it is a great product, I have used it for many large applications.
My problems were stared above.
1. Documentation!
2. Bugs! Remove all bugs from the old version before releasing the new version with inherited bugs from the previous release.
I love CCS but...
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peterr
Posts: 5971
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| Posted: 04/22/2008, 3:31 PM |
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Thanks everyone for your comments. We are working on certain goals in terms of documentation, but it's been also pointed out that if something requires too much documentation then it can be improved. And that's part of the plan as well.
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Peter R.
YesSoftware Forums Moderator
For product support please visit http://support.yessoftware.com |
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PetrP
Posts: 25
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| Posted: 04/24/2008, 10:19 AM |
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I've been using Code-Charge on/off since it was in beta for version 1 (non- studio). The CCS is a complex piece of code and as such it has and will have its share of bugs and shortcomings. I am currently at ver. 3.2 and I plan to stay there for a while.
For those who like to see what others are doing, besides ASPRunner and its siblings, there is a new development going on at www dbQwikSite.com that I particularly like.
This Canadian owned development house in Thailand is working on a Developer version of its app that is simply awesome. I am currently previewing the yet unreleased beta. It is much simpler to use than even CCS. Don't get me wrong, I like CCS --- but for the most part (95% of what I do) I need something less overwhelming.
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Vasiliy
Posts: 378
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| Posted: 04/24/2008, 12:29 PM |
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PetrP,
Nice product (dbQwikSite .com), but IMO mostly for simple web-forms/grids.
Btw, forum confused me a little.
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Vasiliy |
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Mango_Lier
Posts: 110
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| Posted: 04/24/2008, 12:52 PM |
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CCS is a far superior product than anything out there. In terms of design, ease of use, language/layout flexibility, generated code quality,and language support. CCS leaves everybody behind, and I have tried Makers. Runners, & Qwik solutions
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tonyk
Posts: 163
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| Posted: 04/24/2008, 3:05 PM |
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I have used CCS for building several sensitive applications which have been security assessed by interested parties who were happy to continue with use without adaptation. Because of the nature of the clients I am unable to reveal who they are, if you did know who they were...
I agree with the documentation issue but considering the scope and complexity of the system and the number of languages handled it is hardly surprising, I think this is where the videos may prove to be exceptionally useful. However digging and experimenting certainly teaches you though you do not want to spend too long doing that in a commercial development environment.
For a long time I have wished to have a centralised collection of 'really useful tips / examples', this could be in the form of a moderated Wiki. I have loads of saved pages from the forum addressing particular points I would otherwise have wasted hours over. Big thanks to peterr, wkempees and mambobrown, to name but a few, for their patience and magic input across the range.
I do a great deal of teaching in various fields and have to act as a critic/mentor in my other, non -computing, life. The commonest problem I come across is a break down in communications.
I don't believe YES really realize the importance of Communication, people just don't realize the power of their product because of the shortcomings in documentation. I agree that their future would be much brighter if they could address this issue either through promulgation of the proposed videos or through the development and supply of more working examples or support of a Wiki.
I have had one encounter with 'Support'. [Yup one encounter in 4 years of use, hardly excessive) They took a week to sort out the problem but kept me informed all the way. And the fix worked 'out-of-the-box'. Try getting support from Bill Gates!!
This is an honest company with a d**n good product and it deserves our support.
p.s. glad to see Peterr's presence again. HI PETERR
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jhpccs
Posts: 25
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| Posted: 04/25/2008, 3:10 AM |
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Since I started this thread it has had many replys.
peterr returned after being gone for a long time. Great but he did not respond to many of my issues except support. Documentation peterr? Stable release of CCS?
Yes, I know major companies use CCS and you can create large projects.
PetrP, suggested a different product, cheap, weak and cannot compare to CCS.
I love CCS but....
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PetrP
Posts: 25
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| Posted: 04/25/2008, 5:08 PM |
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Quote jhpccs:
Since I started this thread it has had many replys.
PetrP, suggested a different product, cheap, weak and cannot compare to CCS.
I love CCS but....
I am not a newbie. I have been coding and testing software projects since early 1974, from petrochemical industry, to Space Shuttle and Space Station Flight Software. I am always open to new suggestions and ideas. I like to see what others are doing outside of my CCS comfort zone.
For those open minded CCS users, I would like you to venture out and see:
http://dbqwik.blogspot.com/2008/05/web-developer-edition-now-available.html
http://www.dbqwiksite.com/
-----------------------------------------
-- All New Developer Edition --
-----------------------------------------
featuring custom code integration. Now you can add in your own client JavaScript or Server Side Scripts to your projects. Discover the power to hybrid code generation.
To try out Developer Edition by downloading the free PE edition and run in Full 30 day Trial mode.
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greywire
Posts: 37
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| Posted: 04/28/2008, 10:27 AM |
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The title of this thread says it all.
Some of the problems I am currently having with CCS:
My current project needs a concept of modules (and modules could be created by third party developers). CCS does not support this. It can be done, but is a little troublesome, to put things into a folder heirarchy (/modules/modulename/admin/). But a bigger thing that popped up recently was the translations. They are all stored in a single text file in the webroot (along with all the other common files, which is anoying). That means a module could not be packaged separately and installed.
I am not thrilled with the HTML it generates (I don't like the overuse of tables). Now, you *can* change all the html templates.. but that changes them for the CCS application and any other projects you might generate with it. It would be nice to be able to change the html templates per project (not to mention the style sheets).
You can't change the internal templates it uses for generating the server side code (php, perl, whatever) because they are encoded. There have been many times I needed to just make a simple change but I can only do it after the code is generated, and then CCS wont try to change anything in that block.. which leads to having to remove my change, regenerate, and then put it back in. I assume this limitation is more economic than technical, because then you could buy a cheaper code charge with only one language and create your own templates for another.. I don't know, but its really anoying.
It has no concept of doing something that's not directly backed by a database table. It would be nice if we could plug in other kinds of datasource objects that could do something else (read/write a config file, or access a remote service, or access several db datasources to write to multiple tables..)
For what CCS does, it does well... making solid code with plenty of filtering of user input before it gets to the database, makes nice forms, etc. Its just anoying when you want to do something outside of that...
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Aric Caley
Fonality, inc |
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rbkinsey
Posts: 42
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| Posted: 04/30/2008, 9:17 AM |
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I just checked and I've used CC 1.1.16, CC 2.0, CCS 1.0, CCS 2.3, CCS 3.2, and now CCS 4. For my money CCS 3.2 is the most stable, however CCS 4 is the most fun, it's really got a lot to offer. Initially 4 years ago when I first bought into YES, I was really looking for something special in a RAD way which would stand the test of time. I was exposed to Lotus Notes 14 years earlier, however it was very pricey. YES is affordable development power. I'm really very happy about the way YES has spent the money they have received from me over the years.
I believe that there is a lot of good documentation available, perhaps more than people actually want to read. I've been developing applications since the 70s and always found environments to be intuitive. Last thing I would do is read a book, until I was stuck (even then if I had someone knowledgable to goto I would).
I have convienced a recent client that CCS 4 was the answer to his quest to have an environment where he can create professional level applications easily and quickly. He was using Frontpage and is more a graphics person. He is at the point where he questions why he let me talk him into the software. I know that when ever we seat down together for a days worth of changes and he sees the pace we can make changes and how organized everything is kept without any real thought being put into it, he will finally realized what I have done for him. I will probably wait for him to try a few of the tutorials or when he has his first project to do that will make him money and then crunch through it in a day, it will become real for him.
Many corporations partner with their customers in the creation of UserGroups which help supply bug lists, enhancements, and share information. I'm sure that YES provides these various forums for just that purpose, however a UserGroup with people committed to advancing the product could ensure the best ideas are not lost in the many posts. The group could decide what's important from the group's standpoint.
Regards,
rbkinsey
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jjrjr1
Posts: 942
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| Posted: 05/02/2008, 12:05 PM |
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Hi
I just have to add my 2 cents here.
I have been in the software development biz for over 25 Years. (I remember Pre-IBMpc and CPM). I have never used a tool for software development that can do so much basically flawlessly. CCS is the best development environment I have ever used. It has it's strengths and weaknesses. However, even the weeknesses are far above what most other environments can provide when you consider the complete package and integration CCS offers.
In addition to all the powerful abilities CCS offers, it also provides very well thought out entry points for adding custom code. In the year that I have been using CCS, I have found almost nothing that I cannot do with the code it generates. CCS's power also resides in you imagination as to how you implement your code in this environment. Like I said, There has been almost nothing I cannot do in code with this tool.
Honestly the biggest issue I have is the documentation. I consider myself a reasonbly experienced programmer but I find myself all to often needing to look at the code to determine how to implement something. With everthing in included CCS the learning curve is great and without meaningful documentation, I still have much to learn about the tool the hard way.
Because of this complexity and high learning curve, I do pay an annual support fee. This is just an additional cost I incure to make up for the lack of good documentation or code examples. The Tech Support I have recieved has always been first rate and well worth the cost without good documentation.
I highly recommend Code Charge Studio and The Tech Support team and expect they will keep up the good work.
As with any environment as complex as CCS, expect bugs and try to figure them out as well as keeping the support team and these forums updated. That is how a product like this will just keep getting better and all of us will win.
Take Care and...
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John Real - More CodeCharge Studio Support at - http://CCSElite.com |
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whiterabbitwond
Posts: 28
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| Posted: 06/03/2008, 10:43 AM |
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Quote :Many corporations partner with their customers in the creation of UserGroups which help supply bug lists, enhancements, and share information. I'm sure that YES provides these various forums for just that purpose, however a UserGroup with people committed to advancing the product could ensure the best ideas are not lost in the many posts. The group could decide what's important from the group's standpoint.
Re: above comment; I agree. YES Software, you have a large group of enthusiastic people who use your software extensively. It would be worth harnessing all that brainpower in some sort of collaborative way to improve the product. A wiki? Visible bug lists with status? A place to easily upload video tutorials? It is FREE labour!
I for one would certainly contribute, since my career of the last 3 years would not exist were it not for CCS. (ok, it would, but it would not have as fun or *profitable*).
Rather that stressing about getting your documentation revamped, let US, your loyal users help with it.
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wkempees
Posts: 1679
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| Posted: 06/03/2008, 5:35 PM |
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Quote whiterabbitwond:
Quote :Many corporations partner with their customers in the creation of UserGroups which help supply bug lists, enhancements, and share information. I'm sure that YES provides these various forums for just that purpose, however a UserGroup with people committed to advancing the product could ensure the best ideas are not lost in the many posts. The group could decide what's important from the group's standpoint.
Re: above comment; I agree. YES Software, you have a large group of enthusiastic people who use your software extensively. It would be worth harnessing all that brainpower in some sort of collaborative way to improve the product. A wiki? Visible bug lists with status? A place to easily upload video tutorials? It is FREE labour!
I for one would certainly contribute, since my career of the last 3 years would not exist were it not for CCS. (ok, it would, but it would not have as fun or *profitable*).
Rather that stressing about getting your documentation revamped, let US, your loyal users help with it.
Hear Hear!!
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maxq
Posts: 15
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| Posted: 06/07/2008, 3:32 PM |
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I have used CCS for two years now and are in general very happy. I have built several projects, and I am completely dependent of this product for my business with three programmers. The generated code is of good quality and very stable.
That is unfortunately not the case with the IDE. Several problems have existed since I started with version 3.0:
1) Copy and paste deletes custom code (which I use heavily)
2) Some times custom code is dropped from components without any copy or paste
3) Sometimes pages are toatally destroyed and replaced by the preview code used in the editor (including red frames around forms etc) and no original logic. Only solution is to get back the last version committed to CVS with hours of lost work
4) Often (like 10-20 times a day) the toolbox stops working. I set the curson where I want to place a component and press the button in the toolbox (for instance a grid wizard, a label or any other button in the toolbox) but nothing happens. No lockup or anything, just no response. Only solution is to close CCS (not only the project), start it again, open the project, open the file... lots of time lost
5) The IDE crashes
6) Bugs in the wizard javacript code resulting in endless loops and no response from CVS. Solution is to kill CCS and loose all work since last save
7) Documentation was very good on 3.1, but later functions are (very) poorly documented
EDIT: It looks like 1-4 on the list was resolved in 4.01.06. Thanks!!
I also miss the opportunity to make my own components. I guess it is possible to make components by hacking the files in the components folder, but I don't know what will happen on new versions. I do a lot of redundant work due to this lacking functionality.
I think all implementation of new functionality should stop for 6-12 month now, and move the focus to fix whats not working and get the documentation up to date.
Still... I love CCS and it has made me several times more productive. And the generated code is very stable, which is important to me, making a living of selling access to my products to my customers. At least it is me that has to fight with CCS every day, my customers never see the problems.
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datadoit
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| Posted: 06/09/2008, 10:14 AM |
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maxq wrote:
> I think all implementation of new functionality should stop for 6-12 month now,
> and move the focus to fix whats not working and get the documentation up to
> date.
>
> ---------------------------------------
Definitely! :)
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JimmyCrackedCorn
Posts: 583
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| Posted: 06/09/2008, 2:58 PM |
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maxq wrote:
> I think all implementation of new functionality should stop for 6-12 month now,
> and move the focus to fix whats not working and get the documentation up to
> date.
>
> ---------------------------------------
Absolutely agree!!!!
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Walter Kempees...you are dearly missed. |
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