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 Development roadmap

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materix

Posts: 161
Posted: 04/03/2009, 3:42 PM

I would wish that YesSoftware would maintain a public development roadmap, so we the users would get a hint on what the future will bring.


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davidwoo

Posts: 53
Posted: 04/14/2009, 7:59 PM

I am totally agreed.
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Jan K. van Dalen
Posted: 04/15/2009, 7:59 PM

Ditto ...

"davidwoo" <davidwoo@forum.codecharge> wrote in message
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>I am totally agreed.
> ---------------------------------------
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>
paulmason411


Posts: 127
Posted: 07/11/2009, 9:01 PM

I was really impressed by the songbird road map, and thought it could be a helpful example:

http://wiki.songbirdnest.com/Roadmap
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omendoza

Posts: 4
Posted: 08/31/2009, 3:28 PM

I agree.
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jjrjr1


Posts: 942
Posted: 08/31/2009, 5:30 PM

That would be a good idea But...... It does not seem like even Yes knows what it is doing any more..
:(
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peterr


Posts: 5971
Posted: 08/31/2009, 5:36 PM

jjrjr1,

That's very unprofessional. We have never published roadmaps for variety of reasons and nothing has changed. And this is not different from Adobe, Apple and other companies.

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jjrjr1


Posts: 942
Posted: 09/02/2009, 8:01 AM

Hate to tell you that this is how it appears to me.

I am a customer of Yes Software and have seen the lack of direction Yes has exhibited.

I am a professional in this biz and do know how to evaluate situations and clues. It is not unprofessional to state those observations.

Things like adding captcha, (A poor implementation and not really needed to be built in)
Data dictionaries, (why focus on developing this How will that help)
Focus on Artisteer outside of CCS
Not addressing existing issues with the Framework.
Not responding to support requests from Paying Annual Support Customers.
New releases that have new bugs that never get addressed.

Since CCS is a web development framework and IDE it makes sense that it should contain tools for building sites and pages etc. I one time suggested to support that in the page view for selecting colors it would be nice if a color picker was added to that dialoge box. The response from support was "There are 3rd party color picker tools I could use" Yikes!!, but you add captcha??? BTW they gave me no clue as to how I would integrate a 3rd party color picker into the CCS IDE so it would show up when I was picking a color for a font or a BG.

Also, as it relates to support, I waited for over a month to get a resolution from them on a serious bug that prevented the CCS menuing functions from working properly, It got to the point where I ran out of things to tell my customer and that severely affected the project so I had to find another solution besides CCS.

This sort of stuff causes people to look for other alternatives and causes more people to use other frameworks than the mention of competing products in this forum.

That, and other examples, indicate to me that Yes has forgotten that CCS is a development tool and they need to focus on the quality of that funcionality and add features to make the development process better. BTW Adobe has a color picker in their color selection dialoge.

I am not sure why pointing to Adobe, Apple or others means Yes should not provide a roadmap??? I can point to compainies that do provide roadmaps.

Also, since you are pointing to Adobe, Why not add a Flex generator to CCS. That would make more sense today than some of the languages supported by CCS now. Think what that would do to the longevity and power of CCS. Flex is basically XML and CCS already uses XML and Java. Just a thought.

With all that being said, I must re-state that in my over 25 years experience in the IT and software development industry, CCS is one of the best development tools I have ever come across. I hate to see it slowly deteriorate by the lack of serious support and consciensious development.

I love CCS and want to see it get better not degraded. I, like some others, am just getting tired and frustrated battling the IDE along with the challenge of web development itself.




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melvyn


Posts: 333
Posted: 09/02/2009, 12:50 PM

+1 for jjrjr1

There's lot of things where CCS is my first choice, for sure. Each day I use it less and less because lack of innovations and perspectives of future..
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robertmann

Posts: 104
Posted: 09/02/2009, 1:46 PM

I see such points because it happens every 2 years when there are no new upgrades and later each upgrade includes some innovations. If YS create roadmap for innovation then its not innovation. But now many people use Joomla or other ready apps and dont need CCS or flex or any development tools, so maybe this is problem. Another problem that you dont know what you want from CCS. Adding Flex generator is same as closing CCS and creating new product or telling microsoft to create flex generator because it will increase longevity of ms Access. So anyone can do this but I don't understand why you want to close CCS and create different product that I dont need. This forum is about CCS and want CCS, not flex generator. If I want flex generator then I will find one. Propose something for CCS if you want CCS to grow not flex generators. For me CCS is great but reached limits and I dont know what else can it do so thats why I don't complain. But Im waiting to see what else will be next.
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JimmyCrackedCorn

Posts: 583
Posted: 09/02/2009, 2:27 PM

my 2 cents...

-I am using 4.01.00.06 and, for my purposes, it is no less stable than previous versions I have used.

-I decided early on that CCS would not generally work for me to produce public-facing websites due to the limitations on the look and feel; the extra work to convert the pages to my design would outweigh the benefit of using a code generator. so I use it almost exclusively as a back-end admin system generator where I can dictate look and feel to my customers rather than have to modify the design to suit their end-users.

-better documentation is needed. someone there did a bang-up job in previous versions but 4.0 did not get the same attention. one nice addition I'd use right away is a flowchart showing event order; I always have to do trial and error to figure out what event to place my custom code in.

-I have not used support recently but every time I have needed help they have helped me. in fact, more than once they have actually written small bits of code for me that I could easily adapt to fit my project. I would have to rate my experience with Yes support as outstanding

-as to where they are going...it is anyone's guess! some companies publish roadmaps and some do not. I wish Yes did but they have been very clear that they have no plans to do so.

my bottom line is I could probably continue to use CCS in the way I currently use it for the foreseeable future regardless of whether or not they upgrade it. I could use it more effectively if they provided better docs and worked on stability. I'll continue to pony up for the support as long as I use CCS because $149/year is nothing to get help all year on a product like this.
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jjrjr1


Posts: 942
Posted: 09/02/2009, 7:02 PM

Hey Robertman

You do not think database enabled flash generatated by this CCS IDE would be worth it??

I am confused

I would use it


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jjrjr1


Posts: 942
Posted: 09/02/2009, 7:04 PM

In Fact I would use it long before cold fusion or perl


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jjrjr1


Posts: 942
Posted: 09/02/2009, 7:06 PM

BTW if Yes did this thay could make millions selling it to Adobe. CCS has the groundwork already done in a great Framework IDE

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peterr


Posts: 5971
Posted: 09/02/2009, 9:54 PM

Hi,

I mentioned Adobe and Apple because they are innovators, so it was also good point that innovation cannot be roadmapped. And we have many business reasons not to publish roadmaps but it is not my goal to argue each one. However, I can point out that one of those reasons is to avoid such arguments as above where everyone wants different business direction for our company.

John, possibly we are already working on generating Flex applications, but I think that the point is that you cannot decide what a company should be doing or what everyone should be using or how many 'millions' they should be making. Especially when you don't know what the company is currently working on or what Adobe is doing because they also didn't publish their roadmap for Flex generation. Investors and companies don't change their business direction when someone walks into their door and says that they will make millions, or posts this on their forums... If you did proper market research, validated the figures and have a professional business plan then please feel free to submit it to investors or a company like ours for consideration.
Secondly, if we indeed are working on such product then everything discussed here should be happening:
- Roadmap could not be posted due to many reasons, like not upsetting some customers about new direction, not being sure if specific goals can be technically achieved, legal and patent issues, not wanting to alert competitors, etc.
- The company would be busy with Flex for couple years, while being unable to support current customers who would be venting on the forums that nothing is happening.
- jjrjr1 would be saying "It does not seem like even Yes knows what it is doing any more"
- After the new Flex generation product would be finalized and released (separately from CCS because it would work quite differently) everyone else would be saying "It does not seem like even Yes knows what it is doing any more because it spent 2 years working on a new product while CCS stays the same"

Therefore right now we have all the right signs that Yes is working on a new Flex generator. I hope that everyone is happy and I'll see you back in 2 years.
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datadoit
Posted: 09/03/2009, 6:55 AM

I don't think any software company should publish a roadmap. It's a
sure way to fast-track the company's demise.

However, I do like the concept of having a wish-list portal with a
voting system for each item - the Yahoo! Zimbra group does something
similar. The more votes an item or request gets, the more likely it is
to be incorporated in upcoming releases. This gives off the impression
that your vendor is indeed listening and responding.

***This forum-based wish list is somewhat antiquated in the day and age
of social networking technologies.***

Finally, as requested before, I believe YS should have an annual
developer's conference. That's the perfect forum for customer
relationship management, while topics such as roadmaps can be discussed
and/or disclosed without actually 'publishing' anything. They also make
for great product launches, allow third-party vendors to sell their
products and services, and will thus generally pay for itself in
increased revenue from the event. Most companies can usually track
their single largest chunk of corporate revenue to a single event.

That's my view... now back to your regularly scheduled forum already in
progress. :)
Jan K. van Dalen
Posted: 09/03/2009, 6:44 PM

Aha but what was not mention in all your speculation :) but possible implied
is that CCS is a dead product ... as the past 2 year the only work you
mention was in this possible Flex generator (which btw I posted here more
than a year ago that CCS should generate flex).

In conclusion, Yes will be releasing a new product unrelated to CCS and
still we have no clue what CCS will bring in the future. When we ask for a
Roadmap, we are talking about CCS ... not other products.

Could you write another great email but give us of "possibility" and
"Inuendos" about CCS? ... hopefully we don't have to wait 2 years.
Jan K. van Dalen
Posted: 09/04/2009, 6:49 AM

Peter,

BTW, I think is great that someone is creating a code generator for Flex ...
maybe you can answer some of these questions:

1) ETA for release?
2) Can I sign up for Alpha/Beta?
3) Will Yes work with Artisteer to release CodeChargeFlex templates?
4) Will the data connections allow for HTTP Services?
5) Will this product be structure to produce Silverlight compatible apps?

Thanks for your time.
JimmyCrackedCorn

Posts: 583
Posted: 09/04/2009, 2:12 PM

Quote Jan K. van Dalen:
I think is great that someone is creating a code generator for Flex ...

maybe I read Peter's post wrong, but I thought he was just injecting a bit of sarcasm rather than announcing a new product! :)
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peterr


Posts: 5971
Posted: 09/04/2009, 4:16 PM

Quote Jan:
In conclusion, Yes will be releasing a new product unrelated to CCS and
still we have no clue what CCS will bring in the future. When we ask for a
Roadmap, we are talking about CCS ... not other products.

This was mentioned by Robert and was my response to him too. There is no reason to stop CCS development or start discussing other products here. If somebody wants to create Flex generator then it's not relevant if it will be done by Yes or another company. They can launch different forums for that, while forums here will continue be used for CCS discussions.
Until last year we've been busy with finalizing Ajax and now we're working on new features.

However, we don't see any more big ideas from CCS users for new features. Last time when I asked about this then you proposed another product. Now someone else also talks about a different product but doesn't have ideas for CCS.
This means that CCS is mature and complete and even you don't need any new features from it, which is great. This doesn't mean that we don't have ideas of our own, but it means that it's nice to see that we've done so much that people cannot imagine anything much better. Now we mainly see requests for minor CCS improvements and that's good.
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Jan K. van Dalen
Posted: 09/04/2009, 9:01 PM

I know now and I feel like a Jackass :)

"JimmyCrackedCorn" <JimmyCrackedCorn@forum.codecharge> wrote in message
news:224aa182cbbfc89@news.codecharge.com...
>
Quote Jan K. van Dalen:
> I think is great that someone is creating a code generator for Flex ...
>
>
> maybe I read Peter's post wrong, but I thought he was just injecting a bit
> of
> sarcasm rather than announcing a new product! :)
> _________________
> Walter Kempees...you are dearly missed.
> ---------------------------------------
> Sent from YesSoftware forum
> http://forums.yessoftware.com/
>
JimmyCrackedCorn

Posts: 583
Posted: 09/04/2009, 11:39 PM

Quote Jan K. van Dalen:
I know now and I feel like a Jackass :)

don't feel bad. I wasn't sure at first either!!
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Jan K. van Dalen
Posted: 09/05/2009, 10:56 AM

LOL

On one hand I said ... Great a Flex generator ... awesome ... on the other
hand no CCS update.

Now I don't have a Flex generator :) and have no clue of what the status of
CCS is. I just wished I could have at least dream of the Flex generator a
bit longer :)

"JimmyCrackedCorn" <JimmyCrackedCorn@forum.codecharge> wrote in message
news:224aa207881c330@news.codecharge.com...
>
Quote Jan K. van Dalen:
> I know now and I feel like a Jackass :)
>
>
> don't feel bad. I wasn't sure at first either!!
> _________________
> Walter Kempees...you are dearly missed.
> ---------------------------------------
> Sent from YesSoftware forum
> http://forums.yessoftware.com/
>
Jan K. van Dalen
Posted: 09/05/2009, 11:06 AM

Peter, when you say: Now we mainly see requests for minor CCS improvements
.... I guess a definition of "minor" is at hand.

For example, all these enhancements to me could be "major" in productivity:

More Ajax enhancements & Documentation
Documentation
Security (add audit, Active Directory support)
URL Encryption
More Events
More Code Templates
Menu (support for parameters ... both add/remove)
Artisteer support.
Expand Calendar offering (Day/Week views)
CMS output (ability to create Joomla, DotNetNuke extensions) ... obviously
language appropiate.

And I can think of many more
peterr


Posts: 5971
Posted: 09/07/2009, 3:20 AM

Jan,

By "major" I mean a major CCS upgrade, not a small update. And features that most developers would need, not only Joomla or DNN users.
In versions 3 & 4 we've included Reports, Flash Charts, Ajax, Menu Builder. But for example would anyone purchase 5.0 upgrade because it adds URL encryption or couple more events?
I don't want to start new discussions about 100s new small features already requested or discussed before. I'm just curious what is SO BIG that everyone is waiting for and can no longer use CCS without it.
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materix

Posts: 161
Posted: 09/07/2009, 6:00 AM

Quote peterr:
I'm just curious what is SO BIG that everyone is waiting for and can no longer use CCS without it.

Peter, it is the "small" issues that I think most of us are waiting to be fixed / implemented.

Quote peterr:
But for example would anyone purchase 5.0 upgrade because it adds URL encryption or couple more events?

Is that the reason that Yes is releasing so few minor updates, that it can not be sold as a major release?

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Jan K. van Dalen
Posted: 09/07/2009, 8:53 AM

Ok, now I understand. First, not sure why Yes needs to marry "big" items
with major numbers (5.00) but that is ok.

I guess the problem with big enhancements and CodeCharge is what makes it a
great product, the ability to generate multi-server-side languages (php,
asp, ....) and trying to keep generating the same app on each of the
supported languages.

IOW, whatever I ask that could be "big", will only be able to be done in 1
or 2 of the languages.

But I guess the opening of the product to outside resources could be "big".
IOW, create components (I don't care if you must pay extra for the
components) that will allow you to hook solutions to CCS, i.e.:
ComponentOne Studio
Crystal Reports
Hibernate/NHibernate
http://www.dhtmlx.com/

Dynamic Grid (ajax) will be great (resizable/movable columns, Hierachy (grid
within a grid))

Enhance the Security system and add audit and connection to existing models
(Active Directory). For example, in the medical industry, you are bound by
HIPPA security rules (i.e. mask certain fields based on your security). For
that, it will be great if the current security system be enhanced to the
field level.

Create a Data/Model repository to stored rules for system wide defaults

Ability to use the data connections to retrieve/push from/to HTML/SOAP
services.

Ability to generate Flex :)

Obviously there are many more but we all know that everyone has different
opinions.

Finaly, I don't know if anything that I have mention is consider "big" but
.... I just want for Yes to keep providing inovative solutions that makes us
(developers) look good :)
Vasiliy

Posts: 378
Posted: 09/09/2009, 11:18 AM

Quote :
In versions 3 & 4 we've included Reports, Flash Charts, Ajax, Menu Builder. But for example would anyone purchase 5.0 upgrade because it adds URL encryption or couple more events?


You never know. :)
I'd buy because missing events forced us to do really stupid things, like commenting a big block of code and re-creating it with our custom changes in an event handler below the commented area.
Url encryption (if it is done right way) would help us bypass some false XSS alarms and save us some time.
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Vasiliy

Posts: 378
Posted: 09/09/2009, 11:33 AM

Quote :
Peter, it is the "small" issues that I think most of us are waiting to be fixed / implemented

100% agree. Some existing features just don't work right or undocumented and I (personally) don't use them.

Quote :
But I guess the opening of the product to outside resources could be "big".
Disagree.
Yes can be swamped supporting interfaces with different vendors.
Example DHTMLX: I like their solutions, we use their controls in multiple places, but CCS interface with DHTMLX is a dead end. DHTMLX constantly changes. Last weekend (09.06) they issued a new v2.5. Supporting all these versions will be a nightmare.
IMO it would be smarter to open the CCS code generation templates and let enthusiasts and vendors make interfaces themselves.
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Oper


Posts: 1181
Posted: 09/11/2009, 11:16 AM

1) Flash Chart (even the free version out there work better and by work better i mean small option that should be in all Chart)

2) Menu Builder no great at all

3) Captcha is a Joke and Ugly as hell (also imposible to align)

4) AJAX (update Pannel is great, but the other look like half worked)

all of those 4 we use alternative option (same people should do)

what i hate the must is opening a TICKET and 1 year later no solution
even after support said the bug is there.

i normaly send all BUG with a SAMPLE and a FLASH VIDEO.


for me a 5.0 shoudl be fix what need to be FIXED:
IDE) Doign stuff shoudlnt be Doit (just go to a table and set BACKGROUND color, now check the HTML) and few others
AJAX)
AutoComplete: is a JOKE (it just look for the Text, no the ID)
Dependant ListBOX: When Initialy loaded the filter dont work.


That you could workaround TRUE. but but but

i will pay 5.0 for the fixed







as for the ROADMAP (in my personal Opinion its ok to not make public what they are working on)
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