James
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| Posted: 11/03/2002, 4:47 AM |
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Looking at the answers/questions history of this community and today I notice a lot of unanswered questions. On the second page of these threads more than 50% is unanswered. Are there no experts anymore? Looking at the answers in the past I notice that most of the questions are answered by employees (at least I think they are) of Yessoftware. But they only answer questions directly related to CC and CCS. As soon as a question isn't related (for exemple questions about CDONTS) the score is still 0.
I understand that Yessoftware can't understand all the questions, but starting a community like this, gives you also a responsibility. Receiving no answers to a question is rather frustrating. Looking at the reactions on the thread about the documentation and all the reactions when someone offers a free utility, gives me the impression that Yessoftware have to improve the support.
Please understand that I'm writing this thread as a critical but constructive opinion.
Best Regards
James
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To many complaints
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| Posted: 11/04/2002, 7:36 AM |
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The problems is really that there are so many people asking the same questions over and over and over. If you delve back far enough, you'll notice the same darn questions answered 13 times over before someone finally goes, "hey, we already answered this question before. please search for 'blah blah'"
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Grouch
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| Posted: 11/04/2002, 10:20 AM |
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If an editor were to cull the best articles and put them on a recommeneded list..I think it might cut down the amount of questions
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char
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| Posted: 11/04/2002, 10:43 AM |
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And just think...if there were decent documentation, FAQ and KnowledgeBase the same questions wouldn't be asked over and over and over...
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Tony M
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| Posted: 11/04/2002, 12:48 PM |
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I agree with you all.
YES SOFTWARE...Have not kept their promises to update the "Knowledge Base"
at...http://support.codecharge.com/kb_search.asp
Everyone can see this...from the individual posting dates for...
1 - FAQs
2 - How To
3 - Trouble Shooting
They MUST KEEP THE "Knowledge Base" updated
They cannot have any excuses...because they must answer at least FIVE NEW CC and FIVE NEW Studio questions each week.
Imagine how much frustration, duplication of effort and time...they could have saved users...if those answers were in the "Knowledge Base"
It is now Monday the 4th of November...perhaps we will get answers/fixes/updates or some response/explanation from YES SOFTWARE this week...maybe next week...or maybe the week after...or not
Another frustrated Studio user
Tony M
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Jeremy
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| Posted: 11/05/2002, 9:24 AM |
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From a business perspective, imagine how much more efficient they could actually run their OWN business with all of this in place and more thorough. I would probably save them more time than us users :).
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EMG
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| Posted: 11/05/2002, 11:28 AM |
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Enough whining!
For the money, the quality, and the personal benefit$ we cannot complain.
Should CC man the helpdesk or work on the software?
I agree more documentation would help, but look at the big picture, not just your little syntax problem!
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Jeremy
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| Posted: 11/05/2002, 11:49 AM |
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EMG...I don't think that everyone is referring to a little syntax problem. They just want documention that they have been waiting for, for some time now. It has been brought up a lot, but that is what it takes to get heard. You can't whisper to get results a lot of the time, you have to SHOUT with many voices.
If you have ever used other products similar to this in purpose (RAD) then you know that they have a lot more documentation/examples/references. It's just being voiced again here, But I wouldn't go as far to say people are whining. They are frustrated.
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Tony M
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| Posted: 11/05/2002, 3:45 PM |
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Well said Jeremy
I will add "AND THEMSELVES" to my accusation.
YES SOFTWARE cannot have any excuses...because they must answer at least FIVE NEW CC and FIVE NEW Studio questions each week.
Imagine how much frustration, duplication of effort and time...they could have saved users...AND THEMSELVES...if their LOGGED SUPPORT ANSWERS ETC were in the "Knowledge Base"
EMG you are not new to this Forum...I'm disappointed that you accuse others of..."Whining!"...I also believe that you would not write an application...that would cause your users...frustration, duplicate their efforts and waste their time.
YES SOFTWARE have in place a "Knowledge Base" that would only take a few minutes a week to keep updated...by copying and pasting from their support system database etc...They have been very lax in their duty to us and they have broken their promises to us.
EMG just look at the posting dates for...
1 - FAQs
2 - How To
3 - Trouble Shooting
@ http://support.codecharge.com/kb_search.asp
and see just our lax they have been.
Even now it wouldn't take very much time to cut and paste LOGGED SUPPORT ANSWERS ETC into the "Knowledge Base"
Tony M
Another frustrated Studio user
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community
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| Posted: 11/05/2002, 4:44 PM |
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why community?
Because we're here
we've bought the product and are
here for ONE purpose
to get more knowledge
------------quote-----------
YES SOFTWARE have in place a "Knowledge Base" that would only take a few minutes a week to keep updated...by copying and pasting from their support system database etc...
-----------endquote---------
I second that!
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Annie
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| Posted: 11/06/2002, 2:11 AM |
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I dont know how long this product has been on the market, Here in South Africa we've never heard of it before.
From the beginning Ive thought the documentation on this progam is crap! YES, it gives the basics on how to start and do basic things, but once a person wants to move to greener pastures, you have to use examples!
Is this 1st world technology? Because we dont do this.
I think a few people should get together and put together an in depth manual to go with this program, explaining the intrigate things we all need/want/desire.
Im sure there will be MUCH less questions on this site for the YES staff to answer, and maybe they will get answered then, since they apparently have to answer 5 of each a day!
The questions might not seem relavant or difficult to some of the community out there, but they are obviously mind boggling someone enough for them to seek help from others! If u know the answer, why not lend a helping hand?
SUGGESTION: why not put a link to this site somewhere on CodeCharge site, how else are people supposed to know of its existance? I BY CHANCE got the link from a support agent at CC, probably because I was bugging him daily with questions. But how else does a person find out about this community?
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The Whiz
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| Posted: 11/06/2002, 6:18 AM |
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I think Yes Software are a victim of their own success.
The biggest problem I have seen on this forum and in the CC newsgroups is the lack of help and support by CC / CCS users to other CC / CCS users. Most of the competitors products are flourishing because the ‘users’ are a friendly, helpful and (most importantly) ‘giving’ rather than ‘taking’ bunch. It’s true there are lots of questions unanswered – but where are the so called ‘Expert’ users / Programmers (as they like to refer to themselves in various threads)? Why don’t they help the rest of the community out? Simple – because like I said, most on this forum and the news group are ‘takers’.
Some members have tried creating a ‘breakaway’ forum, what happened, nobody supported it (and yes I can here you say well why should we when there’s this one).. Other members have tried creating a ‘code’ bank – but who has really put anything into it?
I’m certain that there are a lot of excellent well developed CC / CCS programs out there, including lots of code ‘snippets’ so rather than moan moan moan at Yes Software, why doesn’t his COMMUNITY get of its backside and stop whinging and helping each other out?
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The Whiz
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| Posted: 11/06/2002, 6:21 AM |
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And before you reply - just look at the biggest threads on this forum... someone offers something and the whole thread fills up with email addresses - gimmi gimmi gimmi!
If only there was that many helping out on the questions...............
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Tony M
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| Posted: 11/06/2002, 7:49 AM |
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To "The Whiz"
I do understand your feelings...but in most societies/groups there will always be more takers then givers
If you search this Forum...You can see the numerous "Givers" of tips/tricks/help/advice/examples etc...These "Givers" don't seem to mind because they're "Givers"
What this Forum needs is a unified voice to persuade YES SOFTWARE to honour their promise to..."Keep the Knowledge Base Updated"...This is a very simple task.
YES SOFTWARE MUST STOP... the frustration, duplication of effort and time wasted by users...AND THEMSELVES...and put their LOGGED SUPPORT ANSWERS ETC into the "Knowledge Base"
This will centralise information as YES SOFTWARE initially intended and help focus and unite the Community/Forum and encourage more "Givers" and others to take part.
Regards
Tony M
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char
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| Posted: 11/06/2002, 9:02 AM |
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Yes, you are correct. With other RADs the support forums are populated by many helpful users. But, I am not so sure there are many bonafide CCS users that are experts. Those that are - even if they were "Givers" could not possibly contend with the amount of help needed by the CCS community.
YS has got to deliver on their documentation promises - or many users will move off to a different product. I am getting tired of slogging thru examples.
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Jon
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| Posted: 11/06/2002, 10:57 AM |
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I am a CCS and Dreamweaver MX user. I actually use DMX more now because the community of extensions and help is so much better and the learning curve has been better too. I was using CC2 for some months before switching to DMX.
I've also purchased IntelliCart (www.rawveg.org/imx.php) which is an extension for DMX and a blindingly good one.
The point I'm making is that Tim Green who has written this extension works on his own. It's a 7mb download and has taken him about 3 months to produce. All users have access to a discussion forum. Whenever anyone writes a question, HE replies personally with a solution, sometimes more than a screenful long. This is while he continues to develop his software.
If one man can give such a first class support service to his customers, why can't Yes Software?
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Jon
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| Posted: 11/06/2002, 11:03 AM |
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Also, this thread is now 16 long and no messages from YS.....
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The Whiz
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| Posted: 11/06/2002, 11:30 AM |
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Quote -
If one man can give such a first class support service to his customers, why can't Yes Software?
I think that just about says everything!
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Tony M
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| Posted: 11/06/2002, 12:26 PM |
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To "The Whiz"
I have searched the Forum for your comments and I see you love to argue with people and wind them up...but I accept there has to be "snipers" in every community/group
So please reply to my previous post to you "The Whiz"
To "The Whiz"
I do understand your feelings...but in most societies/groups there will always be more takers then givers
If you search this Forum...You can see the numerous "Givers" of tips/tricks/help/advice/examples etc...These "Givers" don't seem to mind because they're "Givers"
What this Forum needs is a unified voice to persuade YES SOFTWARE to honour their promise to..."Keep the Knowledge Base Updated"...This is a very simple task.
YES SOFTWARE MUST STOP... the frustration, duplication of effort and time wasted by users...AND THEMSELVES...and put their LOGGED SUPPORT ANSWERS ETC into the "Knowledge Base"
This will centralise information as YES SOFTWARE initially intended and help focus and unite the Community/Forum and encourage more "Givers" and others to take part.
Regards
Tony M
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EMGiz
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| Posted: 11/06/2002, 1:29 PM |
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If everyone whining here looked back at the posts and attempted to answer some of them, there would be less of a problem here. Community, remember?
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The Whiz
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| Posted: 11/06/2002, 1:30 PM |
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Tony M:
Eh.....? All that massive post 'again' the trouble of searching this forum (are you paranoid or something?) - and an insult, when I was actually agreeing with you?????
Gee.........................
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yodabear
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| Posted: 11/06/2002, 2:56 PM |
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I for one am sick and tired of you calling developers who have purchased this product whiners....
There are issues here that are definitely legitimate...
Calling people whiners is just a small (and I mean SMALL) ego-boost to your small mindset...
If you are so brilliant and excellent at CCS why don't you answer the innumerable posts on this frum that have zero replies...
It's time for Yes-Software to assume its responsiblities!
Releasing and appliclcation and not providing documentation that empowers the user with advanced needs is stupid and does not help sales.
The would be buyer browsing these threads will not be impressed.
Yes-Software are the only instance who can set this right.
Contented souls like you, my friend- are not the issue here.
Response from Yes-Software would be of use.
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RonB
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| Posted: 11/06/2002, 3:38 PM |
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I'm sorry but I must say that between this website and the codecharge studio newsgroups I get answers to my questions most of the time. Yes even when my question has been answered more then once elsewhere.
The point isn't so much the questions that don't get answered. Look at the sort of questions that are asked here. Just type in connection and search. It's rediculous how many users have trouble with what is in my opninion the first and basic step for CC and CCS....connecting the damned thing to the database.
I must say I never had that problem but I was used to databases and getting connections to them before CC and CCS. It shows how badle decent documentation is needed.
I am however a bit torn here. I also badly need things like updatable/insertable grid components. I would like the query builder to be able to construct query spanning multiple connections and some of the bugs precent in 1.07 are frustrating to say the least...etc..etc. So I guess whatever YES does it's always going to get some user mad.
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Tony M
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| Posted: 11/06/2002, 4:29 PM |
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Your needs are typical RonB
That's what an updated "Knowledge Base" is for...newbies and others could just read the "KB" and get on and learn how to use CC/Studio much better and quicker.
...only needing to ask the Forum, Newsgroup or YS Support if they were stuck.
Their Question/Answer would then be entered into the ever growing "KB" to benefit others
In time YES SOFTWARE might even trawl the Forum/Newsgroup and add Questions/Answers etc given by the "Givers" to the "KB"
Many like me plead for better documentation...an updated "Knowledge Base" would satisfy a lot of my needs until that arrives.
Regards
Tony M
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teufel
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| Posted: 11/07/2002, 12:38 AM |
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Point # 1 (level of community): The community of CC and CCS users is not composed by 'experts' in its majority. Actually, the products released by YesSoftware come in hand for persons who have little programming knowledge, and that's why many of the questions asked here are really 'basic'.
Suggestion: no suggestion here. This is something to be taken into account by YesSoftware.
Point # 2 (low level of response): Maybe because this is a commercial product, many of the 'experts' maybe just don't care about answering questions, since they can always have commercial support.
Maybe some OpenSource projects function so well because the community is really a little bit more engaged than this one (these are only suppositions based on my previous experience with other communities).
The fact that this community might really have less 'givers' than other communities around might also be a sign of the basic level where most users fit themselves in.
Despite the fact that YesSoftware has probably put some folks to answer many of the questions, as we can guess by the answers of Ms. Nicole or Mr. Alexapolsky (the latter unfortunately collaborates to our misery by putting as subjects only the words 're:'), most of the questions will get unanswered.
On the end, what we have is a not so responsive community.
Suggestion: with OpenSource projects, for example PHP, when the project got big, the 'level' of the mailing list went down, as well as the number of answers to your questions; despite of that, we always get nice answers from expert users, and most importantly, *from the developers themselves*. OTOH, with commercial products such as those from Microsoft we usually get a lot of support just by wandering through the docs. My suggestion for YesSoftware is to get the better of both worlds, i.e., (1) provide decent documentation, and continue to (2) provide improved informal support (you folks from YesSoftware who wrote the application can answer questions better than no one else, just like Mr. Rasmus Lerdorf, the creator of PHP more than once answered my questions himself) - don't just let the users in this forum by themselves.
Point # 3 (documentation sucks): The documentation released with the products is really very incomplete. *No examples at all*!!! Somebody said: our product, even buggy, should already start being sold; let's put it on the market today! Ooooops! We forgot decent documentation! Now my friend, questions, questions and more questions is what you get... If to the poor documentation you add non skilled users, then..... amount of questions you get should be at least tripled...
Suggestion: decent documentation, with EXAMPLES, EXAMPLES and MORE EXAMPLES!!! Not only all the basic questions should be addressed, but also the most intrincate procedures should be dealt with. What we want is not so difficult to produce: a complete and in depth documentation is something ESSENTIAL. CCS is already a much more complex product than CC, so that even for the experts, some in depth documentation with a clear understanding of how it works is really a must!
Point # 4 (this Forum application sucks): IMHO, most of the questions I have, even those which are answered somewhere in here, are NEVER GOING TO BE FOUND INSIDE THIS FORUM, for the simple reason that I cannot find them... That is another reason why questions keep being asked again and again and again: they are not in the docs, they *are* in the forum, they just can't be found....
FYI: I myself stopped looking at this forum. My two reasons: 1) When I first try to search for information I almost never find the info I'm looking for, although it might be hidden somwehere in here. 2) If then I post a question, I normally don't get any useful response if I get any at all. So, I've been addressing my questions (even the FAQs) to YesSoftware directly until my support period ends. These questions are answered there, their contents never get published here, so that I solve my problem and lots of others don't until they ask directly YesSoftware, and...... It seems logical: if YesSoftware could have put just a little bit more effort in providing a more useful forum tool with better search capabilities and differentiation of distinct categories (e.g. CC x CCS), maybe YesSoftware would have more time to work on bug corrections instead of being busy answering FAQs.
Suggestions: 1) Lets be honest: this forum sucks! You can't find what you are looking for! So my suggestion is to substitute this application for a better and professional one. It does not have to be built with CC or CCS, we just want a more professional application that suits our needs. Maybe YesSoftware could just use a commercial or OpenSource product with better search capabilities, since this forum, as it is, is at most of the time just a waste of time... 2) Split this forum into two: one for CC and one for CCS (even better: split for different target languages - ASP, PHP, JSP...).
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EMG
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| Posted: 11/07/2002, 6:20 AM |
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This posting is getting more exciting everyday. Yogibear: I have answered more than a dozen postings in the last two weeks. Ego, no, persistence yes.
We should all let Nicole, Alex, and the rest of the gang pick up this issue.
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yodabear
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| Posted: 11/07/2002, 1:37 PM |
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EMG: thats a name??
How come I've never seen you on the newsgroup? afraid to show up where your email address can be shown?
Unless your name is Sixtos, RonB or Dave Rexel you are bending the truth.
These are the people that always seem to be there for newbies and experts alike offering patient help when our stalwarts Alex and Nicole are busy...
Once again you are maybe an uber-expert(not!) or maybe just plain stupid but these posts are mostly from paying customers with legitimate demands for GOOD and DETAILED documentation for a program they have invested money and time in: VS, MX, KYLIX all have good docs -- CCS needs that too.
TonyM has the best sugestion yet: that YesSoftware assign resources to building a proper Knowledge-Base from the existing content.
Let it go on record that I respect and like the YS email support.
I am expert in many programs because of the docs which allow me to bend the app to my will.
What part of that can't you understand?
Or maybe you're supernatural and don't need documentation when you need to do something not shown in the very basic tutorials and docs released with this so called STUDIO??
Personally I think you are just a teaser who does not possess any true expertise and just floats around creating trouble.
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EMG
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| Posted: 11/07/2002, 2:08 PM |
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Boy this is getting rich.
Yogibear:
1. Please review the 2 dozen + postings I have solved for people
(last one was today for dwelsh, "adding button that works")
2. I have nothing to prove to anyone, my proof is in my wallet
3. I have contributed to over 15 licensed sales of CC & CCS
(including my own)
4. I don't share my personal information online with people name YogiBear
Now please, let us all drop all this and only post technical issues.
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yodabear
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| Posted: 11/07/2002, 2:24 PM |
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From your beloved yodabear
gettit? yo da bear?? nope?
1-how? this forum app sucks bigtime
search for specific issues/posters
= not possible here
2-you do not want to compare bank balances with me
3-ho hummm zzz zzzzzzzzzzzz
4-see zz-top
Now, a technical issue:
How do you recover from when CCS just self-destructed a page created visually when, lets say a {Label} thats been programmed carefully with [Event Code] is declared illegal and you need to recover?
No way
CCS refuses to show the newbie or expert mercy and chooses to demolish the {Label}
Say once after me... it won't hurt
I promise
USER-FRIENDLINESS
-yodabear
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EMG
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| Posted: 11/07/2002, 2:49 PM |
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My apologies to CC for misuse of the community...
YoDaWhiner:
I've got work to do. Go elsewhere if you don't like it here.
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